Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: 'Veneration of the 'Saints'' Message-ID: Date: 8 Jul 90 04:26:42 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston -- Department of Mathematics Lines: 73 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article ssimmons@unix.cie.rpi.edu (Stephen Simmons) writes: >On the other hand, John received the revelation of Jesus Christ from >an angel, specifically, Jesus' angel (Rev. 1:1). Furthermore, there >are some Protestants that argue that the angel was not an angel per >se, but a saint! They base this upon the idea that the angels just >means "messenger" in Greek (don't quote me on this) and that the angel >of the Revelation said this: > >"See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren >the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book." Rev. 22:9 > >and: > >"See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that >have the testimony of Jesus; worship God: for the testimony of Jesus >is the spirit of prophecy." Rev. 19:10 > >Here the angel is called John's brother, fellowservant, and holds to >the testimony of Jesus. I don't see how these passages say that the angel is human, John's 'brother'. They say that the angel is a fellowservant, with John and other believers, of God. There is nothing in the passages that supports the conclusion that the angel is (a risen) human. More importantly, we cannot equate these angels with the being that appears to John at the beginning of his Revelation. That being clearly identifies himself as Christ; he says: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!" To conclude that this speaker is not Christ himself we would have to reason, with Calvin, that since Christ is seated at the right hand of God, he cannot also be present on earth -- reasoning that actually contradicts scripture, for Christ promises that his body and blood are present in the Lord's supper, and also that 'I am with you always', and 'where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.' Perhaps I have misconstued Calvin here; perhaps he made a a distinction between Christ's spirit, which is 'with us', as the Holy Spirit is, and his 'body and blood'; but either way I think he was wrong. The angel in Rev. 19:10 is identified in Rev 17:1 : "One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters..." The angel in Rev. 19:10 is similarly identified. Rev 22:8 says: I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me." This angel is identified in Rev 21:9 : One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." I find it difficult to avoid making this identification, and impossible to identify this angel with the being who says: "I am the First and the Last"(or Alpha and Omega, whatever the greek says). David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran "Behold a host, arrayed in white, Like thousand snow-clad mountains bright, With palms they stand. Who is this band Before the throne of light? Lo these are they of glorious fame Who from the great affliction came And in the flood of Jesus blood Are cleansed from guilt and blame. Now gathered in the holy place, Their voices they in worship raise, Their anthems swell where God doth dwell Mid angel's songs of praise." --Norwegian hymn. My opinions and beliefs are not likely to coincide with any held by The University of Houston. [Yes, Calvin does believe that Christ can be spirtually present anywhere. --clh]