Xref: utzoo comp.sys.apollo:5851 comp.sys.hp:5638 Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!snorkelwacker!usc!samsung!munnari.oz.au!metro!news From: jimr@maths.su.oz.au (Jim Richardson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo,comp.sys.hp Subject: Re: Netpower: encourage HP to improve customer services Message-ID: <1990Jul18.102038.22220@metro.ucc.su.OZ.AU> Date: 18 Jul 90 10:20:38 GMT References: <1990Jul6.015817.23710@metro.ucc.su.OZ.AU> <4310127@hpindda.HP.COM> <1002@limbo.Intuitive.Com> Sender: jimr@maths.su.oz.au (Jim Richardson) Reply-To: jimr@maths.su.oz.au (Jim Richardson) Organization: Dept of Pure Mathematics, University of Sydney Lines: 113 In article <4310127@hpindda.HP.COM> in comp.sys.hp, danh@hpindda.HP.COM (Dan Herington) writes: >... In defense of HP though, there are reasons why they don't use the internet. > >I am currently in the process of investigating ways of providing electronic >support for HP's Network Management Dev. Kit. My first suggestion was to >start a notes group - I used notes quite a bit when I was in the lab. What >I didn't realize is that the support I was getting was unsupported. I >found out that since much of the internet is privately and/or publically >funded for non-profit purposes, it is absolutely NOT kosher to support a >commercial product using the internet. Any of the questions that get >answered here are being answered by the individuals without the support of >HP - hence the obligatory "disclaimer." In article <1002@limbo.Intuitive.Com>, taylor@limbo.Intuitive.Com (Dave Taylor) replies with a list of companies which already are successfully giving support to users via the Internet, and points out that this is "the wave of the future". I'm afraid I don't see why HP interprets network use guidelines as prohibiting what we are requesting. Here is most of the file NETUSE.TXT from nis.nsf.net describing acceptable use (many other networks have guidelines similar to the NSFNET's: see ftp.math.lsa.umich.edu:/pub/emv/acceptable-use/* for some others): Interim NSFNET Acceptable Use Policy The purpose of NSFNET is to support research and education in and among academic institutions in the U.S. by providing access to unique resources and the opportunity for collaborative work. This statement represents a guide to the acceptable use of the NSFNET backbone. ... (1) All use must be consistent with the purposes of NSFNET. (2) The intent of the use policy is to make clear certain cases which are consistent with the purposes of NSFNET, not to exhaustively enumerate all such possible uses. (3) The NSF NSFNET Project Office may at any time make determinations that particular uses are or are not consistent with the purposes of NSFNET. Such determinations will be reported to the NSFNET Policy Advisory Committee and to the user community. (4) If a use is consistent with the purposes of NSFNET, then activities in direct support of that use will be considered consistent with the purposes of NSFNET. For example, administrative communications for the support infrastructure needed for research and instruction are acceptable. (5) Use in support of research or instruction at not-for-profit institutions of research or instruction in the United States is acceptable. (6) Use for a project which is part of or supports a research or instruction activity for a not-for-profit institution of research or instruction in the United States is acceptable, even if any or all parties to the use are located or employed elsewhere. For example, communications directly between industrial affiliates engaged in support of a project for such an institution is acceptable. (7) Use for commercial activities by for-profit institutions is generally not acceptable unless it can be justified under (4) above. These should be reviewed on a case-by-case basis by the NSF Project Office. (8) Use for research or instruction at for-profit institutions may or may not be consistent with the purposes of NSFNET, and will be reviewed by the NSF Project Office on a case-by-case basis. Now, the "support infrastructure" of many research and instruction insti- tutions connected to the Internet includes HP and Apollo computers. According to (4), it would be acceptable for HP to use NSFNET for administrative communications to assist its customers in their research and intructional use of HP computers. In fact, I think one could even interpret (4) and (7) as permitting "commercial" support by HP -- e.g., email communications to a particular customer in fulfilment of a commercial support contract -- provided the *customer's* work is "consistent with the purposes of NSFNET". A review by the Project Office might be needed to confirm this. However, now let's look at (7) itself. It states that COMMERCIAL activities by for-profit institutions are generally not acceptable. In what way is it a COMMERCIAL activity for HP to answer questions for free in newsgroups carried by NSFNET, or to provide an FTP archive accessible for free by anyone on the NSFNET? A public service with no charge to the recipient is not commercial in my book. In any case, the statement invites review by the NSFNET Project Office. Has HP made a submission to the Office for review? If so, could we be told what the Office said? Even if HP *has* asked in the past and failed, I suggest that a well structured *JOINT* submission from HP *and* interested US academic institutions could well be successful. The Australian Academic and Research Network AARNET is at present formulating policies for affiliate members, and I hope and expect that this policy will permit what we are after. A direct connection in Australia between HP and AARNET could then be considered even if US network guidelines do turn out to be as restrictive as HP seems to think. >Anyway, we are now looking at using CompuServe. Any comments? ... From Australia? You're joking. Dave Taylor has said it all here. (Sorry for the delay in Draft 2 of the "Netpower Open Letter". Hardware and newsfeed problems are my current excuse. It won't be much longer.) -- Jim Richardson Department of Pure Mathematics, University of Sydney, NSW 2006, Australia Internet: jimr@maths.su.oz.au ACSNET: jimr@maths.su.oz FAX: +61 2 692 4534