Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian
From: jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: 'Veneration of the 'Saints''
Message-ID: <Jul.13.05.04.19.1990.12095@athos.rutgers.edu>
Date: 13 Jul 90 09:04:21 GMT
Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs (Liberty Corner)
Lines: 40
Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu

David Wagner posted some things from Melancthon.

Here is a quote from Jerome's work against Vigilantius.  It has to do
with the intercessory power of the Saints:

 If the Apostles and Martyrs, while still in the body, can pray for
 others, at a time when they must still be anxious for themselves, how
 much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won!  One
 man, Moses, obtains from God pardon for 600,000 men in arms; and
 Stephen, the imitator of the Lord, and the first martyr in Christ, begs
 forgiveness for his persecutors; and shall their power be less after
 having begun to be with Christ?  The Apostle Paul declares that two
 hundred three score and sixteen souls, sailing with him, were freely
 given him; and, after he is dissolved and has begun to be with Christ,
 shall he close his lips, and not be able to utter a word in behalf of
 those who throughout the whole world believed at his preaching of the
 Gospel?

There are abundant quotes from the Fathers regarding invocation of
Saints.  The Catholic Encyclopedia has quotes from St. Ephraem, St.
Gregory of Nyssa, St. Gregory Nazianzen, St. Ambrose, St. John
Chrysostom, St. Augustine in the article "Intercession."  Of especial
interest is the Catechetical Lectures of St. Cyril of Jerusalem, because
it is a description of the liturgy of the early Church.  (These are all
4th century Fathers.)

David quoted Melancthon:
    
    "Men suppose that Christ is more severe and the saints more
    approachable; so they trust more in the mercy of the saints than in
    the mercy of Christ and they flee from Christ and turn to the
    saints.  Thus they actually make them mediators of redemption."

Which, of course, is a weak argument against St. Paul:

 I beseech you, therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and
 by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for
 me to God.  (Romans 15:30)

Joe Buehler