Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: math1h3@jetson.uh.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: 'Veneration of the 'Saints'' Message-ID: Date: 18 Jul 90 09:07:24 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston Lines: 84 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com writes: > David Wagner posted some things from Melancthon. > > Here is a quote from Jerome's work against Vigilantius. It has to do > with the intercessory power of the Saints: > > If the Apostles and Martyrs, while still in the body, can pray for > others, at a time when they must still be anxious for themselves, how > much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won! One > man, Moses, obtains from God pardon for 600,000 men in arms; and > Stephen, the imitator of the Lord, and the first martyr in Christ, begs > forgiveness for his persecutors; and shall their power be less after > having begun to be with Christ? The Apostle Paul declares that two > hundred three score and sixteen souls, sailing with him, were freely > given him; and, after he is dissolved and has begun to be with Christ, > shall he close his lips, and not be able to utter a word in behalf of > those who throughout the whole world believed at his preaching of the > Gospel? This appears to vindicate Melancthon, more than refute him. What I quoted from the "Apology to the Augsburg Confession' said : "in the controversy between Jerome and Vigilantus there is not a syllable about invoking, but only about honoring, the saints." So far, I don't see a word about our invocation of the departed saints, i.e., praying to them, asking their aid, etc. That the saints and angels pray for us, I should not dispute. In Zechariah 1:12 an angel prays "Lord Almighty, how long will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem and from the towns of Judah, which you have been angry with these seventy years? Similarly in Rev. 6:10, the martyrs under the altar in in heaven pray: "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" What is in dispute, however, is that we should ask the departed saints for aid in bringing our requests to God. That I cannot recommend to anyone. Rather I should recommend against such a practice, because it is subject to much abuse, and because we know that God hears our prayers for Jesus' sake. We have no basis for believing that the prayers of the departed saints are any more effective than our own. > > David quoted Melancthon: > > "Men suppose that Christ is more severe and the saints more > approachable; so they trust more in the mercy of the saints than in > the mercy of Christ and they flee from Christ and turn to the > saints. Thus they actually make them mediators of redemption." > > Which, of course, is a weak argument against St. Paul: > > I beseech you, therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and > by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for > me to God. (Romans 15:30) > Paul asks that the Roman Christians support his kingdom work with prayer. The NIV translates: "I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me. Pray that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea and that my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints there, so that by God's will I may come to you with joy and together with you be refreshed." If more of us could learn to pray 'Thy kingdom come, thy will be done,' with sincerity and faith, as Paul does here, the whole church would be much healthier. I find it hard to construe Paul's words to mean that God is more severe than the departed saints, and so we should pray to the saints for intercession, rather than directly to God. His intention is clearly on asking the Romans to be a part of his struggle to advance the Kingdom of God. As the church sings: "If you cannot speak like angels, If you cannot preach like Paul, You can tell the love of Jesus, You can say He died for all. If you cannot rouse the wicked With the Judgement's dread alarms, You can lead the little children to the Savior's waiting arms. "If you cannot be a watchman, Standing high on Zion's wall, Pointing out the path to heaven, Off'ring life and peace to all, With your prayers and with your bounties You can do what God demands; You can be like faithful Aaron, Holding up the prophets's hands." David H. Wagner A confessional Lutheran My opinions and beliefs are not likely to coincide with any held by The University of Houston