Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!snorkelwacker!usc!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!njin!princeton!surya.cs.Virginia.EDU
From: cak0l@surya.cs.Virginia.EDU (Christopher A. Koeritz)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Looking for a philosophy/religion.
Keywords: zen zing zap zim zoom (calvinian motion)
Message-ID: <1263@idunno.Princeton.EDU>
Date: 17 Jul 90 14:48:59 GMT
References: <1211@idunno.Princeton.EDU>
Sender: mukund@idunno.Princeton.EDU
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In article <1211@idunno.Princeton.EDU> tay@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Mike Taylor) writes:
>The problem I have is understanding what is meant by stuff like "when
>you travel east, you also travel west", 
well, i don't know if i can help about this, but it seems to me, at least
on an oblately spheroidal planet such as ours, west and east are merely
nominal designations for the sides of the planet.  if one is traveling
to the east, say from chicago to new york, he is also traveling towards
san francisco, which is to the west.  this is obviously a special case,
and does not reflect deep wisdom in the speaker (me).

>and "the present becomes the past and the past becomes the present".
the present is always becoming the past, eh?  even when you were reading
that sentence and it was the present then, it is now the past.
the past becomes the present is harder for me to provide a logical
rationalization, which is exactly what these koans are supposed to do.
they are intended to block the normal "this causes this and stems from
that and makes sense this way" kind of mind-stream we are usually
trapped in.  the intent, as far as i understand it, is to break through
logic, feelings, desires, etc, and make one perceive rather than
judging.  if one allows the logical part of his mind to become thoroughly
dedicated to understanding this, either it will understand it in some
way or be blocked.  when it is blocked, reality peeps through the mental
fog most of us keep ourselves in.
a cop-out-- when people forget the past, history is doomed to repeat itself.
hows that for dissatisfying rationalization about "past becomes present"?

>  It seems to be in the crux of
>the Zen mind, kind of disregarding the reality that has been put upon
>you, and disregarding what you have learned.  I think that is what is
>meant to have the "Beginner's Mind".
disregard implies ignoring, to me.  i feel that the attempt is to snap
conceptions in half and throw them away like dry sticks, when they are
unrealistic or damaging to the consciousness engaging in them.

>Mabey I try too hard to understand Zen.  "I have nothing to teach you
>about Zen", "keep the beginner's mind", and "if you see the Buddha, you
>must kill him" are the types of phrases that keep coming up.  It seems
>very elusive and meant to be that way.
>Mike Taylor             | "I've seen stranger things than you
>tay@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com    |       in my breakfast cereal!" - Zaphod Beeblebrox
i do know one thing-- if people think the expression, "if you see the
Buddha, you must kill him" is not meant for people to hurt Buddhas.
that literal action would be one of those seven(?) heinous crimes that
are supposed to keep one in one or another hell a very long time.
unfortunately, my understanding does not extend to this sphere,
although at one point someone told me that if you think you see the
buddha, kill the conception that you are seeing him.  you are not
really seeing him, as he really is, for perceptions are flawed at the
root.  if the fact that you think you have seen the buddha is afflicting
your mind, kill the thought.  this extends to parents and friends and
anyone or anything else.  but like i said, i don't really understand it.

hope i helped a little.
Chris Koeritz.