Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: christm@loki4.math.stolaf.edu (Mark C. Christianson) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: 'Veneration of the 'Saints'' Message-ID: Date: 26 Jul 90 05:51:11 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 48 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Joe Buehler is wrong in his comment about the quotation from Melanchthon (from Article XXI of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession) provided us by David Wagner. The quote is: "Men suppose that Christ is more severe and the saints more approachable; so they trust more in the mercy of the saints than in the mercy of Christ and they flee from Christ and turn to the saints. Thus they actually make them mediators of redemption." Joe Buehler says that this is a week argument against St. Paul (Romans 15:30, here given from the NewRSV). I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in earnest prayer to God on my behalf. Paul was asking the Christians in Rome to pray for him, his safety, and the success of his ministry in Jerusalem (where he was taking offerings >From the Christians in Maccedonia and Achaia). This is nothing more than what we might ask our friends to do for us when going on a long trip or entering into some sort of environment or activity that has its dangers or rewards. It has nothing to do with praying to the saints, or praying with the saints, or venerating the saints, what ever language you might wish to use. The quotes from Melanchthon and Romans are not in conflict. Melanchton is saying that the practice of invocation of the saints had been corrupted and misused to the extent that people were no longer trusting in Christ for salvation and redemption, but in the saints. They feared the loving God and Christ so much that they turned to the saints for mercy instead of to Christ, who, as Almighty God, can alone save us. Paul is asking other Christians who were living in Rome in a letter he wrote to them for thier prayers. He is talking to the people in that Roman chruch, not to the Chruch at all times. St. Paul, having died and been commended to the eternal care of Christ, no longer needs our prayers. And he was not asking us to pray to him but for his safety. At the time he wrote this to the Christians in Rome, he was a living human being, with needs and expectations. He wanted the support of the Roman Christians to whom he wrote the Epistle to the Romans. Remember what the word "epistle" means. He includes in almost all his letters (Galatians being a notable exception) personal messages to people in the communities he writes. This is one such message. Mark C. Christianson christm@stolaf.edu