Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!apple!sun-barr!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: invoking saints (Re: 'Veneration of the 'Saints'') Message-ID: Date: 26 Jul 90 06:02:47 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: AT&T Bell Labs (Liberty Corner) Lines: 72 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu David Wagner wrote: That the saints and angels pray for us, I should not dispute. In Zechariah 1:12 an angel prays "Lord Almighty, how long will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem and from the towns of Judah, which you have been angry with these seventy years? Similarly in Rev. 6:10, the martyrs under the altar in in heaven pray: "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" OK, so the departed saints and angels pray for us. (Presumably with some effect.) What is in dispute, however, is that we should ask the departed saints for aid in bringing our requests to God. That I cannot recommend to anyone. Rather I should recommend against such a practice, because it is subject to much abuse, and because we know that God hears our prayers for Jesus' sake. We have no basis for believing that the prayers of the departed saints are any more effective than our own. Compare these two statements with the NIV version of St. Paul that you posted: "I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me. Pray that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea and that my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints there, so that by God's will I may come to you with joy and together with you be refreshed." It is not clear to me that you are gathering the drift of what St. Paul is doing here. He is asking people to pray for him. He is basically "praying to" saints, just like Catholics do. So, three points: 1. Does this mean that Christ is somehow too severe to hear St. Paul's prayers, so he needs someone else to pray for him? Is that why he's asking people to pray for him? 2. Or perhaps other people's prayers are more effective than his? Is that why St. Paul is asking other people to pray for him? 3. Or is St. Paul about to lapse into idolatry perhaps? He is addressing prayers to creatures, after all, rather than to our one sole Mediator, Jesus Christ. Let me adapt the prayer that the Holy Ghost gave us, so we can see what a Catholic prayer to a Saint might look like (I dedicate this one to our moderator. Ummm, if he doesn't mind.): I urge you, St. Charles, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me. Pray that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea and that my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints there, so that by God's will I may come to you with joy and together with you be refreshed. Amen. Joe Buehler [I am certainly happy to join you in prayer. However the issue in question is not whether it's appropriate to ask people to pray for you, but whether it's appropriate to make such a request of someone who is dead, and who furthermore you didn't know even when he was alive. Paul's letter does not seem to be evidence on that question. You may of course make arguments that it shouldn't matter. I am certainly willing to listen to such arguments. But simply citing Paul doing something whose appropriateness is not under discussion doesn't seem entirely relevant. --clh]