Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: 'Veneration of the 'Saints'' Message-ID: Date: 24 Jul 90 08:50:11 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Grebyn Timesharing, Vienna, VA, USA Lines: 86 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article math1h3@jetson.uh.edu writes: >What is in dispute, however, is that we should ask the departed saints >for aid in bringing our requests to God. That I cannot recommend to anyone. >Rather I should recommend against such a practice, because it is subject to >much abuse, and because we know that God hears our prayers for Jesus' sake. A few weeks ago, I posted three questions to the net: 1) Is it proper for a Christian to pray for another Christian? 2) Is it proper for a Christian to ask another Christian to pray for them? 3) What, exactly, does a Christian *do* when he *prays for* another? Although there weren't very many public responses to these questions, the email responses I got were basiscally: "Of course it's ok, why not?" My first question to math1h3 (don't have your real name handy), then, is: do you think it is ok for Christians to pray for each other? Of course, God knows what we need even before we do. So why does *anyone* *ever* have to pray to God? He already knows what we need and is certainly capable of giving it to us. One answer is because one of the things God may know that we need is humility, and a conscious trust and love for Him and a love for our neigbor equivalent to the love we have for ourselves. Now, if you accept that God gave man a *real* free will (as Catholics do), that means (by definition) that God will not interfere in our use of our free wills. But God's purpose in giving us a *true* free will is that we might *freely* love God and love our neighbor as ourselves. (There's nothing like "coerced love." :) This is the sole purpose of having a free will. But as Fate would have it we are fallen creatures and to do what God wants us to do might actually require us to exert our wills in a manner which is opposed to our inborn pride and selfishness. So if God wants us to be humble and loving of Him and our bothers, we may actually have to do things which develop love and humility in our lives: like praying to God, like doing good works for God and our neighbors, and even (gulp) asking help from our neighbors when we are weak, and even (double gulp) asking our neighbors to pray to God for us, either because we feel our prays are not effective (our prayers certainly have no merit in themselves) or because praying for me is good for my neighbor, even as praying for my neighbor is good for me (not to mention my neighbor). So even though nobody needs to pray (God already knows what we need and can give it to us, right?) God gave us free will so we could use it to do things which glorify Him, like praying to Him for ourselves and for our neigbors, and even asking our neighbors to pray for us. About Saints: My next question to math1h3, then, is: is the problem that we are praying to our neighbor, or is the problem that our neighbor may now be departed from us? Regarding praying to departed saints, you say: "That I cannot recommend to anyone. Rather I should recommend against such a practice, because it is subject to much abuse, and because we know that God hears our prayers for Jesus' sake." That's very properly protestant of you, math1h3, but why do you *really* think we shouldn't request the aid of saints in our daily struggles? Your first argument could be more compelling -- eating is also subject to much abuse, as are many other things in life (e.g. sexuality). This does not mean that misuse of a thing requires that we therefore never use it at all. We must always and only use a thing propery, and this includes praying to God, and asking for help from our Christian brothers (departed or not). Second, you say God hears are prayers. Quite true. But as I have already pointed out, why pray at all? Or why not pray for a Mercedes Benz? I would say that the humble requests for help that we make to our brother Christians is far more pleasing to God than either of these two acts -- and this doesn't matter if our brothers are departed or not. Of course, there remains the question of how much, if anything, our departed brothers and sisters can do for us. This, I think, is a far more interesting question. Any thoughts? yours in Christ, chris -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/