Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: johnw@sag4.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Importance of sacrifice Message-ID: Date: 29 Jul 90 18:03:05 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 45 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu [David Wagner asked why Catholics make the Lord's Supper a sacrifice. Joe Buehler answers (1) that it was the universal Christian tradition handed down from the Apostles (2) he cites Malachi 1:11, in a translation that refers to Gentiles offering a clean oblation (a technical Catholic term for the sacrifice of the Mass). (3) cites various ancient writers calling it a sacrifice. >Protestant liturgy is unlike any of the traditional >liturgies, because it is lacking the sacrificial language. --clh] Well I guess Protestant liturgy is unlike any of the traditional liturgies because instead of going back to the early Fathers of the Church, they went back to the Bible. We must weigh scripture against scripture to find the truth. Malachi may have spoken about sacrifices (and it is by no means certain that he was prophesying about the Mass) but Jesus never said, "Do this to perpetuate the sacrifice that I will initiate tomorrow (i.e., Good Friday)." He said, "Do this in memory of me." Paul never said that the eucharist is a sacrifice. Indeed in the same letter (1 Cor.) he talks about the sacrificial giving of money in the same way you and all those guys (Iraneus, Ambrose, Augustine, etc.) talk about the sacrifice of the Mass. The Bible, when specifically referring to the Last Supper, or Communion, never talks about a continuing sacrifice. The Druids had a great saying: "Truth against the World." I respect most of those ancient Fathers of the Church, but several holy people saying something does not make it right, especially when it contradicts the Bible. I don't know how far to take the Tradition-with-a-Capital-T idea of the Catholic Church, but when Tradition makes void the Word of God, I'll go with the Word. [Surely the Lord's Supper has sacrificial implications in the Protestant tradition as well. First, the elements themselves are potent reminder's of Christ's sacrifice. Second, most Protestant liturgy that I know of reminds us of Christ's sacrifice for us. If the Catholic concept is of not so much a new sacrifice, but that we are mystically brought into contact with Christ's original sacrifice, then the difference is not quite as drastic as might be supposed, though there is certainly still a difference. It seems that as elsewhere when dealing with eucharistic theology, the primary difference is in the degree of literalness with which we take Christ's presence. Catholics believe that Christ's body is physically present. It seems somehow consistent with this to see the Mass as involving the worshipper more directly in Christ's sacrifice. --clh]