Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!cbmvax!daveh From: daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) Newsgroups: alt.sources.amiga Subject: Re: Amiga Blues Message-ID: <13725@cbmvax.commodore.com> Date: 9 Aug 90 18:40:51 GMT References: <20260001@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com> <1037@flash.UUCP> <13697@cbmvax.commodore.com> <1045@flash.UUCP> Reply-To: daveh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie) Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA Lines: 152 In article <1045@flash.UUCP> klg@flash.UUCP (Kevin L. Gross) writes: >In article <13697@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie) writes: >>What are you on, acid or something? Is the Amiga the only computer you've >>ever had experience with? Care to site just one case of where you have been >>lied to? >Uh, no, I don't drink cola. No, the amiga isn't the only computer, in >fact I have run more different kinds of systems than I can even >remember, but that's not the point. I say they lie because they make >promises that never come true....at least, not without buying/upgrading >another system. 1000 -> 2000 -> 3000 -> 4000. Basically, I was told the >Amiga 1000 would be a true, expandable, multi-user system. The Amiga 1000 is a true system. It is also expandable. It was never sold as a mult-user system, and to date, no Amigas are being sold as multi-user systems. The Amiga OS is by definition a single user multitasking OS and Commodore has never claimed anything to the contrary. >The fact that the expansions do not work unless they are the last one on the >bus, First of all, what expansion configuration do you have? Commodore supports two kinds of expansion mechanisms for the A1000 -- A **SINGLE** SOTS (Slap On The Side) box, or a Zorro II compatible card cage. Commodore does not endorse daisy-chained SOTS boxes, and has never produced any device with a passthrough connector. If you have a gripe with this kind of device, your gripe is with the company who made it, not Commodore or the Amiga itself. I asked you for details to support your claims, but you return nothing but nebulous ramblings. >and I have to reboot to run most of the programs that really use graphics, I've used roughly 30 programs that use graphics. Programs like Deluxe Paint, Professional Draw, Sculpt-Animate 4D, etc. The ONLY programs I have ever encountered that require reboot are a subset of the available video games on the market. These are doing things that Commodore tells their Developers not to do. Commodore can't force any non-Commodore agency to do anything. Your gripe, again, is not with the Amiga here. If you buy a game that claims to run under the operating system, and then actually requires you to reboot, you have indeed been lied to, but by that game's creator. Much the same as on other systems. >I mean, I'm still playing Rocket Ranger on my A1000, I just have to reboot >the thing to play the game on a multi-tasking system. Don't seem right, >somehow. It isn't right. There's nothing Commodore can do, really, to force authors to use the OS. But you are getting a little carried away here, really. It is only a couple of games that you're complaining about in this respect. No non-game program ever written for the Amiga, at least to my knowledge, throws out the OS. About 1/2 the games out there are well behaved with respect to the OS. Personally, I don't really care that much about games on this system, I use the thing to get work done. Those games that are well behaved will continue to work on more advanced hardware and OS releases, while those that break the rules will eventually cease to work. Let the buyer beware is a good rule, regardless of whether you're buying a $40 game or a $400 word processor. Companies that write good, bug free code and use the OS will ultimately be rewarded with a good reputation, customer loyalty, and many fewer customer support nightmares. Same as on any other system; all those Mac programs that didn't follow Apple's rules are breaking under Multifinder, on the Mac IIci or IIfx, and more will die when their new OS is released. >>And it's illegal to take over the machine. All developers know these things. >But they do it anyway...and they all say its due to those requirements >that it doesn't work. Some of them MUST be telling the truth. Huh? The vast majority of developers do things the right way, and don't get into any trouble when new hardware or system software comes along. Most of the ones who through out the OS are simply being lazy, programming as if they were on a C64. If they tell you they have to throw out the OS, they are very likely lying to you. A very small percentage of video games may need to take over the machine to go as fast as their authors would like them to go. It's up to you whether you buy there or not. >>> 6. Our hardware has to be the last on the expansion slot. >But I have an A1000 that was DESIGNED to do this, and it don't work. Again, huh? The A1000 doesn't have an expansion bus, it has a single expansion connector. You can hang one device on that, or you can hand an expansion box on that. Any of these multiple-box configurations are doomed to failure, and Commodore doesn't claim anything different. If a developer chooses to disobey the rules, that's bad, but there's nothing we can do to stop them. >>> 7. Normally, memory chips are $100/MB, but for you, an Amiga >>> owner, its $700-800 to upgrade from 1MB to 2MB RAM. >8 meg for a Intel 386 machine is $700.00 RETAIL! Microbotics sells an 8 meg board for the A2000 which I've seen for $750, and you can probably find it for less. The obvious problem with the 1000 is that you need a place to put that board. That's why the A2000 has the built-in slots; you more for an A2000 than an A1000 or A500, but you'll make up for it if you expand the thing. >I'm mad cause Allegra, (who owns the Amiga division I'm told?!?!?) wants to >charge me over $400 for ONE LOUSY MEG. This ain't right, chillun. First of all, Allegra is a third party product, it has nothing to do with Commodore-Amiga. Commodore-Amiga, Inc. is a division of Commodore Internation Limited. Secondly, if they charge too much, look elsewhere. This is a free market, and they charge what they believe the market will bear. With about 150,000 units, some of which are out of the market from Commodore's "upgrade to A2000" offers, no one's selling alot of these things. I think the Microbotics Starboard goes for about $400 for 2 megs. >>So the Amiga tells you of a failure, where the >>Mac or PC might simply freeze up. >I'm used to UNIX, I'll take your word for this one. UNIX is very nice in this respect; it is extremely difficult for a user program to bring the system down. This capability (protected operating systems) are moving onto PCs, but only to some degree. The low end machines like the A1000 simply cannot offer such protection; they don't have the required MMU hardware. High end Amigas like the 2500s and 3000s are capable of running UNIX, which of course can give you such protection. The current thrust under the Amiga OS is to provide developer tools that will trap such errant behavior using the MMUs on the high end systems. When developers fix these kind of bugs (and there are an amazing number of these kind of bugs in some commercial programs), you'll see far fewer software errors, even down at the low end. The _majority_ of software vendors aren't intentionally writing bad or buggy software, if anything, they're just rushing things to keep up with the competition. >All I want is the graphics and sound of the Amiga combined with the >speed, power and functionality of UNIX along with the expandibility of >a mainframe on my desk at home. But I can't afford a Silicon Graphics >machine. No much to ask, eh? You need something between a SG machine and an A1000, like something in the A3000 range, to actually run UNIX. The Amiga OS does have some advantages over UNIX: it's faster, it's more interactive (real-time response), it runs in much less memory, it runs on cheaper machines (68000 based), it takes less disk space, it's ROMable, it supports user-installable device drivers and filesystems, etc. Except for the chance of a user program crashing it, I like just about everything about the Amiga OS better than UNIX. But they are two different animals. For floppy based A500s, you absolutely need Amiga OS. For multiuser setups, you absolutely need UNIX. For the in-between, single user hard disk based system, either OS will work; the choice may depend on your personal perferences and the job that has to be done. And, of course, UNIX isn't available just yet. >-Kevin L. Gross Systems Mgr. klg@Summation.WA.COM > As long as the systems are up, my employers don't care what I think -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Get that coffee outta my face, put a Margarita in its place!