Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!samsung!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uupsi!grebyn!media!rmf
From: rmf@media.uucp (Roger Fujii)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
Subject: Re: Netpower: Support via Internet (was: Apollo/HP contrast)
Message-ID: <1990Aug7.201929.11848@media.uucp>
Date: 7 Aug 90 20:19:29 GMT
References: <1990Jul23.100007.2429@metro.ucc.su.OZ.AU> <1480002@hparc0.HP.COM>
Organization: Media Cybernetics, Inc.
Lines: 121

graham@hparc0.HP.COM (Graham Eddy) writes:

>in the following, my voice is my own and cannot be construed as official
>company policy.  okay, now that i can't drag hp/apollo into this..

>> As an Apollo customer, I feel that great improvements are urgently needed
>> in many aspects of support.

>yes, no doubt.  in fact, it would be helpful if people with constructive
>criticism contacted *us* rather than the media first.  the merger of the
>support structures has not been as smooth as it might have been :-( and
>some feedback from you people needing support would help set priorities.

How about answering questions?...

>> Without disrespect for the size of HP, I'd like to point out that Sun and
>> Apple are not tiddlers either.  Sun has an archive on uunet.uu.net.  And as

>perhaps it should be made clear to all that we are not comparing support
>apples to apples :-)  some companies base their support on "you fetch it
>if you think you need it but don't expect *us* to talk to *you*" and some
>do it differently.

Yes, like Apollo, where we call a toll free 800 number, leave a name and
number, and wait weeks to a year (literally) to get a response back.  And
when they *do* get back to you, usually, they have to call you back because
they can't understand the question...  I have much better responses from
SUN with "voice" responses and REAL good response with email.  When was the
last time YOU called Apollo support?  I rank SUN's support an order of
magnitude better in QUALITY than Apollo's.

>> It should be possible to support paying customers by email on a public
>> network, provided those customers are using the equipment being supported
>> for purposes acceptable to the network.

>it is only a minority of customers who have access to the sort of
>facilities being touted here.  this suggestion thus is based on the
>assumption that large and rich customers should receive better service
>than smaller customers.  ecch!

Uunet charges $35 + connect.  This is not an overwhelming burden.
I suppose you think faxing things are unfair to since not everyone has
one.

>> Firstly, making information available by FTP to everyone on the net is
>> much cheaper than distributing it by old-fashioned means. 

>see above.  the suggestion advocates two separate delivery mechanisms.
>anyone with a bit of business acumen will realise that this means it
>is actually more expensive, not cheaper, if the labour component is
>nontrivial.  labour is the most expensive component today!

Who ever said quality comes easily?

>> Secondly, if routine support questions, which hundreds of different customers
>> might want to ask, can be answered by the customers themselves through
>> reference to a public archive, HP support resources will be freed to process
>> tricky non-routine questions more effectively.  That should make life more
>> interesting for support engineers, apart from anything else :-)

>see above.  i like the idea of a free-for-all forum for people to
>discuss problems - as we have now with comp.sys.apollo - but am concerned
>at the prospects of smaller customers without access to such.  ultimately,
>from where does the funding come?  do we expect smaller customers to pay
>more for more extensive assistance and the funds be used to subsidise
>the richer customers? or the reverse: the richer customers pay for the
>forum to subsidise the extra assistance smaller ones require?  has
>anyone making this proposal actually costed an appropriately sized
>anonymous ftp server, or is it assumed costless?

It depends on what HP considers the value of Customer support.

>> Thirdly, an efficient and attractive support system available via Internet
>> will be a big plus for HP in selling more machines.

>i agree wholeheartedly! but see above.

>*sigh* is it only development people who understand the 80/20 rule?
>there are two choices: release software when it is nearly done (i.e.
>possibly some obscure bugs) and get it out now, or spend an extra two
>(maybe three) years and get it just right.  it is better for *everyone*
>that reasonable care be taken, rather than perfectionist care, else
>it will never be seen at all!  in fact, i continually argue that we
>should put out software earlier in its cycle, labelled with a clear
>warning that it is indeed early and prone to errors - but consumer
>gets to decide whether to use it.

Apollo does do this.  See 10.1, 10.2.  Note that 10.2 is sufficiently
different that it should not be thought of as an 'incremental' upgrade.

>adding to that, food for thought: of you developers out there, how
>many of you are prepared to make an absolute gurantee of your own
>software, that no matter what future developments occur etc that you
>will drop what you are doing and fix bugs no matter how important
>or trivial?  no, you'll draw a line and say: here it is; it's as
>good as can be reasonably expected..

True, but we *do* fix bugs when it is 'reasonably expected'.
Besides, just what does this have to do with support?

>okay, in summary: it is clear that some people are not receiving the
>level of support they expect.  i am amazed to see people complaining
>that hp/apollo does not read notes/usenet, yet these same people post
>their complaints there instead of letting hp/apollo know!  please, if

Because we get relatively quick responses here.  We don't have to wait months
for an Apollo reply (have you tried to use mkapr lately?).

>you have constructive criticisms, contact your local response centre
>or support office: how else do they know to lift their game?

Personally, I have better things to do with my time than to hunt down
Apollo reps trying to get them to fix their problems.

If Apollo does not want to improve Customer support because of cost,
then say "we are too cheap to offer these services."  Going under the guise
that it is not 'fair' is silly (unless you are trying to imply that
there is *no* favortism for Mentor Graphics).
-- 
Roger Fujii - Media Cybernetics		Phone: (301)495-3305
Internet: rmf%media@uunet.uu.net 	UUCP: {uunet,hqda-ai}!media!rmf