Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!usc!apple!escher From: escher@Apple.COM (Michael Crawford) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: The programming CULT (WOW!) Message-ID: <9646@goofy.Apple.COM> Date: 9 Aug 90 01:32:27 GMT References: <1990Aug6.172135.27287@midway.uchicago.edu> <4153@rodan.acs.syr.edu> <1990Aug8.233604.26207@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA Lines: 53 Perhaps we should let this thread die; it started out good but has descended into squabbling. However, I have one point to make: In article <1990Aug8.233604.26207@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> resnick@lees.cogsci.uiuc.edu (Pete Resnick) writes: >portable, readable, pretty, or modifiable code. Inevitably, it is the >best brick layers who learn how to do this and then become architects, >or it is those of us who came in from the outside. CS-training is >great for theoretical problems in CS, but I would never want to get >the code for the implementation of their solutions from the CS people >themselves. My partner in Oddball Enterprises, Chuck Lundquist, is a Carpenter. He attended the School of Hard Knocks (started work at 15). He has built houses that cost up to $5,000,000, knows how to do everything -- plumbing, bricklaying, siding, framing, drywall. He often complains that architects design structures that cannot be built; it is often up to the carpenter to make corrections in the design as he goes, or get the architect to correct it. He has said many times that the best architects got their start in the trades; one can tell a plan that was drawn by a former carpenter as it is easy to build. He also says that architects rarely actually visit the houses they design. When they do they are often quite shocked to see their artistic concept transformed into a reality. They view their plans as creative works, and may not consider certain practical concepts as whether the walls can hang together. I got my start in programming rather the way Chuck got his in construction; by being dropped into the harsh real working world and struggling to survive; this has made us very tenacious and practical workers. However, the reason both of us have gotten beyond the bottom rung of the ladder is that we have both taken the time and effort to actually learn the underlying principles of what we do. A real programmer is one who has been in the trenches, and has also studied the books. I am personally quite skeptical of most computer science curricula; the graduates who are prepared to work in the industry usually got their practical experience on their own time while in school; however, one who just knows how to code without knowing the underlying principles is doomed to forever be buried in a windowless cube in a basement office somewhere, writing boring code. -- Michael D. Crawford Oddball Enterprises Consulting for Apple Computer Inc. 606 Modesto Avenue escher@apple.com Santa Cruz, CA 95060 Applelink: escher@apple.com@INTERNET# oddball!mike@ucscc.ucsc.edu The opinions expressed here are solely my own. alias make '/bin/make & rn'