Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: timh@linus.uucp (Tim Hoogasian) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Let's end the silliness of "relative" sinfulness, shall we? Message-ID: Date: 6 Aug 90 01:09:28 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: IDE, San Francisco Lines: 153 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu (any and all Biblical quotes will have to be regarded as paraphrased, since i don't have my Bible with me, in order to get them completely textually accurate.) In article jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com writes: >The distinction between mortal and venial sin is basic to Roman Catholic >spirituality. ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ and you've hit the nail on the head right there. >The difference between the two is the gravity of the acts >involved. Some things are incompatible with the love of God and the >salvation of one's soul. who's to judge the gravity of one's acts except Almighty God? you? me? sorry, sin is sin is sin. the only sin you're going to find explicitly mentioned in Scripture as unforgivable is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Dogma about "relative sinfulness" of various sins only serves to cloud the issue that ANY sin is repugnant to God. i haven't minimized or maximized the nature of sin here - i'm just telling it like it is: "For *ALL* have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" the fact that you (and i, and everybody else in the world) are a sinner condemns you to eternal separation from God (Hell). there's no point in artificial distinctions between "greater" and "lesser" sins. God hates them all! >Trying to make all sin mortal would not fit with the traditional >practice of the Sacrament of Penance, which involves private confession >of sins to a priest. If every sin were mortal, there would be no way >you could ever confess them all. do you believe that by your own might in confessing your sins to your priest that you'll make things right with God? ("Well, if I say I'm sorry, and recognize all the sins I can think of that I've committed, that'll appease Him, right?") i'm not anti-Catholic, i hope you realize. but i've nowhere seen in my Bible (NIV, for any who care) anything to suggest that i need any particular Sacrament or Rite to restore me to Grace. all that is necessary is for me to confess my sin, and repent of it. "If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." We don't need any intermediaries - we are instructed to boldly (!) approach His Throne of Grace, repentent of our sins (i.e., none of this "Well, I'm sorry I did it, but I might do it again" stuff), to ask His mercy and forgiveness - and He will grant it! >There are also interesting implications in the civil domain. If every >fault deserves Hell, then putting someone to death for little things is >justified. > whole 'nuther ballgame entirely. are you going to attempt to coerce Almighty God to play by the rules of man? "My ways are above your ways, and My thoughts are above your thoughts." (loosely) the point is this: a Just, Holy God will not (*cannot*, if He is to remain self-consistent) tolerate sin. any sin. period. However, by the Grace (translated: Unmerited Favor) of Jesus Christ, God views us through Christ's righteousness, and counts that as our own. (i know i wouldn't want to be Judged on the basis of my "good works" by a Just, Holy God. would you?) >Catholic spirituality views the work of grace as a growth of the soul in ^^ ?? ^^ ^^^ ???? ^^^ >sanctity. Mortal sin kills the life of grace. The Sacrament of Penance >restores it. Holy Communion feeds it. The spiritual life is above all >the avoidance of mortal sin, and a striving to eliminate all deliberate >venial sin. > No, No, *No*! "Sin" (no prefix whatever) removes you from God. God doesn't forsake us - we forsake Him. Rites and Sacraments must be kept in their proper perspectives. they are above all RITUALS. they have NO merit of themselves. the Christian recognizes that he is hopelessly a sinner - he's stuck, and unless Christ Jesus (and *only* Him) saves him, he is doomed to eternal (think about how long that is) separation from God. we can't "help" the process along with our rituals. till the day we die, we remain sinners; but by the Grace of God, through Jesus Christ, we who have accepted the free gift of Salvation will NOT be judged as we so richly deserve to be. (i am not sneering here) do you honestly believe that you have enough holiness in you to resist Sin on your own, without the help of Christ? we who've been Christians for a while often get to thinking we're doing pretty good (i must confess i've done this as well) in our Walk. That smug sin is called Pride. Christ is the only reason we are able to resist sin. (i know, i know - "What about the atheist who lives a 'moral' life? Hasn't he resisted sin?" has he really, though? nope. think about it.) by making distinctions between 'mortal' and 'venial' sin, men are encouraged to think in relativistic terms about their sins, ("Thank you O God, that I am not as that heathen over there...") thereby encouraging them to sin further by having pride in their own works and "righteousness." remember what God thinks of our works? they're "as filthy rags." give yourself a break - you'll NEVER earn your way into the Kingdom of Heaven. if your name is written in the Book of Life, signified by your personal recognition of your unworthiness and acceptance of Christ's saving Grace, then your salvation is sure! >Making all sins mortal involves puzzling notions of justification, or >something. It would seem to make justification independent of human >acts, since "the just man falls seven times daily." EXACTLY! HOORAY! You've hit it! Justification IS just that - independent of human acts. "You are saved by Grace (Unmerited Favor), not of works, lest any man should boast." (i realize my paraphrases aren't tight enough...) We did not seek out God - He sought us! He wanted us to be reconciled with Him so BADLY that He sent His Son, Jesus, to die on Golgotha the cruelest death ever conceived (which He did not deserve in the slightest) so that we could be offered (and hope- fully accept) His free gift of salvation. >If I'm so inclined >to mortal sin that even a holy man sins seven times a day, what has the >Redemption done to restore the human race? > but you see, Redemption does NOT belong to us all - it's there for those who choose to accept it, but it does NOT apply to all who happen to belong to the family of Man. God doesn't wish that any should perish in Hell, but He is also not sentimental - He offers each of us salvation, but if we don't accept the gift, we have condemned ourselves. the human race can't restore itself. our race will only be restored to God when His kingdom is finally established here on Earth. don't concern yourself with when He'll do it - that's His worry, not ours. >Joe Buehler tim Tim | ARPA: timh@ide.com Hoogasian | UUCP: sun!ide!timh (415) 543-0900 =============================================================================== #define DISCLAIMER "Are you nuts? I don't represent anyone, let alone myself!"