Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: 'Veneration of the 'Saints'' Message-ID: Date: 6 Aug 90 01:13:26 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Data General Corporation, Research Triangle Park, NC Lines: 83 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: > >1) Is it proper for a Christian to pray for another Christian? >2) Is it proper for a Christian to ask another Christian to pray for > them? I think the above is quite proper. >3) What, exactly, does a Christian *do* when he *prays for* another? He or she is interceeding as we were told to do. The Christian goes boldly before the throne of grace and present petitions there. The Christian prays directly to God or Jesus, from his or her position in Christ. >My first question to math1h3 (don't have your real name handy), then, is: >do you think it is ok for Christians to pray for each other? More than okay, it is required of us. Be glad to provide Scripture for this if you want. > >Of course, God knows what we need even before we do. So why does >*anyone* *ever* have to pray to God? He already knows what we need and >is certainly capable of giving it to us. >One answer is because one of the things God may know that we need is >humility, and a conscious trust and love for Him and a love for our >neigbor equivalent to the love we have for ourselves. Another very good reason is obedience! ;-) But that does not take away from your reasons above. >About Saints: My next question to math1h3, then, is: is the problem >that we are praying to our neighbor, or is the problem that our neighbor >may now be departed from us? Regarding praying to departed saints, you >say: "That I cannot recommend to anyone. Rather I should recommend against >such a practice, because it is subject to much abuse, and because we know >that God hears our prayers for Jesus' sake." > >That's very properly protestant of you, math1h3, but why do you *really* >think we shouldn't request the aid of saints in our daily struggles? >Your first argument could be more compelling -- eating is also subject to >much abuse, as are many other things in life (e.g. sexuality). This >does not mean that misuse of a thing requires that we therefore never >use it at all. We must always and only use a thing propery, and this >includes praying to God, and asking for help from our Christian brothers >(departed or not). Here, Chris, is the real crux of the matter for me. Praying for saints and asking saints to pray for you is one thing, while the saints are alive. But praying to saints, alive or dead, is not found in the Scripture by express command or permission. Nor is it even dreamt of. The problem I have with praying to saint who is still alive is that it puts that person in the fore of an act that belongs only to the living God. And while praying to a dead saints does the same thing, I have another problem with praying to a dead saint in addition. The saint is dead. The saint is not aware of what is happening here on Earth. Further, what can a saint, a human being like me, do that God cannot do? I see no other mediator spoken of in the Bible other than Jesus Christ. I have looked at the writings of many of the early Christian writers and don't find evidence that they believed in another mediator between God and man for several centuries. But the biggest stumbling block is still that praying to someone other than God is taking away worship that rightfully belongs to God and not the creature. > >Second, you say God hears are prayers. Quite true. But as I have >already pointed out, why pray at all? Or why not pray for a Mercedes >Benz? I would say that the humble requests for help that we make to our >brother Christians is far more pleasing to God than either of these two >acts -- and this doesn't matter if our brothers are departed or not. Pray because it teaches us humility. Pray because it teaches us about the sufficiency of Christ in our lives. Pray because it shows the love that indwells us. Pray because we are told to do so. Should I go on? For the glory of God and of the Lamb, Gene Gross