Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: invoking saints Message-ID: Date: 6 Aug 90 01:57:10 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: AT&T Bell Labs (Liberty Corner) Lines: 50 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Whoops, I confused things a bit by using St. Charles in my prayer lifted from St. Paul. I was not addressing the prayer to the moderator! Here is a corrected version: I urge you, HOLY ANGELS AND SAINTS, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me. Pray that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea and that my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints there, so that by God's will I may come to you with joy and together with you be refreshed. The words in caps are all I've changed from the Scripture version. Chris understands the point. The only difference between the above and St. Paul's version is: -> St. Paul addressed men on earth -> My version addresses angels and men in Heaven The mediatorship of Christ, etc., has nothing to do with this issue. If I can ask my brother to pray for me, I can ask St. Michael the angel, or St. Moses, or St. John the Baptist. What does it matter if one's on earth, and another in Heaven? We all love one another. Objections have to center around one of the following: -> the saints and angels can't hear us -> they hear, but don't care -> they hear, care, but can't do anything for us -> they hear, care, but aren't allowed to do anything for us (Etc. You can think up your own variations.) The problem we are having here is not one of abuses. If someone wants to guard against abuses, that's fine, I'm all for it. But I don't think that's what is going on here, I think people are denying the legitimacy of invocation of the Saints, and this in unbiblical. I request that those who have been arguing against the practice repost (or email me) the following as your own. (It's a small fragment from the ancient prayer called the Litany of the Saints.) St. Michael, pray for us. All you holy Angels and Archangels, pray for us. All you holy orders of blessed spirits, pray for us. St. John the Baptist, pray for us. St. Joseph, pray for us. All you holy Patriarchs and Prophets, pray for us. St. Peter, pray for us. St. Paul, pray for us.