Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Prayer, and stuff Message-ID: Date: 8 Aug 90 07:25:36 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 47 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu >St. Michael, pray for us. > All you holy Angels and Archangels, pray for us. > All you holy orders of blessed spirits, pray for us. > St. John the Baptist, pray for us. > St. Joseph, pray for us. > All you holy Patriarchs and Prophets, pray for us. > St. Peter, pray for us. >St. Paul, pray for us. Hey, you...why don't you pray for yourself? Where in scripture does it say that angels can pray? Where does it say that people who have died can pray? I see lots of scriptures that say they are praising God. I see lots of scriptures telling us to pray, while on earth. (also...I don't see any that say to pray for dead people...) Why would a person-in-heaven (I don't really think that's who scripture refers to with 'saint') be able to pray more effectively than we can? God doesn't listen to them more than us...he's no respector of persons. I think the whole idea of dead Christians (in the physical sense) praying for us is an excuse for our poor praying. If my prayers aren't getting answered, I try asking some neato figurehead (Like 'St. Jude...patron of impossible situations') to pray for me. "If anyone can get me some help from God, it's Jude..." Guess what...if you can't get into a position to receive God's blessing, neither can a person who has died. Likewise, our role as intercessors is right now. Not when we're in heaven. We are supposed to pray for each other, and our government, and other things, now. The Bible does not say "ask for prayers..." It says "pray." There are times when Paul asked for prayer, but he did not ever ask a person who'd died to pray for him. If prayers aren't getting answered, it's our fault, and we need to change ourselves. We don't need to get more people to help us bombard heaven's gates. (from the inside or out). That would imply that God needs to be convinced that we really deserve His help. Well, He wants to help us anyway. And we don't deserve it. I think that we need to learn how to pray, not to ask more 'saints' to come to our rescue. Why isn't there more real manifestation of God's power in the world? I hear of (and see at church, occasionally) real healings and deliverances from all sorts of oppression, but it's not on the scale it should be. If the church today were as obviously powerful as it was in the book of Acts, people would be begging to become Christians. Maybe we need to learn how to pray, and learn how to let the Holy Spirit work through us, rather than looking to 'saints' for help. The Bible says that all the promises of God are 'Yes' and 'Amen' to us... why haven't we been getting answers? If God's not lying, it must be our praying.