Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: johnw@sag4.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Importance of sacrifice Message-ID: Date: 8 Aug 90 07:45:37 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 66 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article barry1@ihlpa.att.com (Barry O Olson) writes: >> presence. Catholics believe that Christ's body is physically present. >> It seems somehow consistent with this to see the Mass as involving the >> worshipper more directly in Christ's sacrifice. --clh] > > >I know that in many forign countries many catholic bishops are >heading a campaign to discredit fundamentalist evangelicals >because they are leading many out of the catholic faith with the >teaching of the born-again experience. Guess what, the bishops >are using the argument of the "only" way to receive christ is >through the eucharist, at the hands of a priest. these bishops >assert it is false teaching that one can be born-again, by inviting >jesus into the heart to live. > >Take Care > >Barry This is exactly why I oppose the idea of The Sacrifice of the Mass. The Catholic doctrine is a very 'luxurious' one, one that sophisticated minds can understand; but simpler minds should not be expected to do so. I know that my own understanding and practice of Communion comes close to Catholicism in that I treat it as a very important time to focus my faith eyes on Christ and what he did for me. And in the physical act of faith (all faith includes physical acts) I instantly get connected with the God's grace (eternal life to come, abundant life now, etc). No, I do not believe that simple 'belief' gets us saved (or even 'safe'); it's faith (which means: action based upon belief, supported by confidence) that gets us saved and puts God's life in us right now. Now, Jesus said, "Do this in memory of me; therefore, I by faith, claiming God's promises of forgiveness and healing (for that is what communion, or the Mass is all about), do it in memory of him. Thus I act, based upon my belief, supported by what confidence I have in God (no matter how small, since God honors even the tiniest amount of faith). Alright, what does this have to do with the controversy at hand? Why complicate the Communion with sophisticated arguments about objective and subjective sacrifices and all Masses really being the One Sacrifice (not merely a reenactment)? These are arguments that Paul could easily have made about the Old Testament sacrifices (bloodiness or unbloodiness is irrelevant here), but he didn't. They were just as much physical acts which God told his people to do, and if they did them in faith (remember my definition), then they pleased God (since without faith it is impossible to please him) and received God's implant of life (i.e., his spirit). The Catholic position, which people on the net have eloquently described, too easily devolves, IMHO, into a doctrine that puts the priest above the laity (since he is the one performing the 'necessary' sacrifice) and into superstition, since simpler, less educated people don't think along the lines of the people on the net. Instead of singling out one particular act of faith (which could lead to idolatry), why don't we stress the importance of all kinds of acts of faith, and their sacramental nature. I mean, the giving of money to God seems to be just as important as Holy Communion, seeing as how God was talking about money and offerings all throughout the Bible. And Paul actually calls it a 'eucharist' in 1 Cor 8 or 9. Or the 'born again' experience where a person uses his mouth as the focus point for faith. There are many foci through which God pours his life into us and becomes Really Present, as long as we maintain the grip of faith; not just the Mass.