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From: cms@dragon.uucp
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Resurrection (was:  invoking saints)
Message-ID: <Aug.8.03.47.28.1990.12999@athos.rutgers.edu>
Date: 8 Aug 90 07:47:30 GMT
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Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu

In article <Aug.5.18.59.02.1990.17330@athos.rutgers.edu>, tp0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas Carl Price) writes:
>>Why is it OK for someone who is alive to be a mediator for you to God
>>and not some one who is dead?
> 
> 
> Because dead people are asleep in the ground awaiting the resurrection, that's
> why. Psalm 6:5, and elsewhere -- I could elaborate if people are interested.
> 
> TP

 Psalm 6 reflects a common notion at the time that the abode of the dead was a
place of no activity surrounded by darkness.  This notion held firm almost
until the time of Christ when God Himself revealed a clearer notion of the
hereafter.  Wisdom 3:1 says:

   But the souls of the just are in the hand of God,
     and no torment shall touch them.
   They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead;
     and their passing away was thought an affliction
     and their going forth from us, utter destruction.
   But they are in peace.

 The Visitation of Souls (or Day of Judgment) is distinct from the
resurrection, a point of confusion.  Again, Wisdom 5:15 says:

   But the just live forever,
     and in the LORD is their recompense,
     and the thought of them is with the Most High.
   Therefore shall they receive the splendid crown,
     the beauteous diadem, from the hand of the LORD --
   For he shall shelter them with his right hand,
     and protect them with his armor.

 Compare 2 Timothy 4:7:

   I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept
 the faith.  From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me,
 which the Lord, the just judge, will award to me on that day,
 and not only to me, but to all who have longed for his appearance.

Yet 1 Peter 5:4 says, "And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will
receive the unfading crown of glory," not a reference to the last judgment. 
Generally, references to the last judgment are accompanied by statements about
ruling the nations along with punishments of the wicked.

 James 1:12 is similar, "Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for
when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life that he promised to
those who love him."

 Matthew 28:20, "...And behold, I am with you *always*, until the end of the
age."  (emphasis mine)  Jesus will be with us *always*, in this life and in the
next life.  The passage does not indicate that there will be any waiting period
during which Jesus will not be with us.

 Also, in Matthew 23:43, Jesus says to the penitent thief, "Amen, I say to you,
today you will be with me in Paradise."

 If one assumes heaven is less a place-where than a condition of the soul, then
Jesus is technically in heaven even as he marches into hell to free the souls
of the "prisoners," as noted in Ephesians 4:8, "Therefore, it says:

          He ascended on high and took prisoners captive;
            he gave gifts to men.

What does 'he ascended' mean except that he also descended into the lower
[regions] of the earth?  The one who descended is also the one who ascended far
above all the heavens, that he might fill all things."

 Ephesians 1:22 notes, "And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as
head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of the one
who fills all things in every way."  God fills all things, on the earth, above
the earth, and below the earth.  Thus, God was with the souls below the earth
(peacefully resting) until Jesus Christ descended and brought them up into the
highest heaven where they experienced the fullness of the knowledge and love of
God.  The Ephesians passage cited above (4:8) makes reference to the
event in the past tense, indicating that Jesus has already taken the souls 
with him into the highest heaven.  This is why, because of his Cross and
Resurrection and saving of souls, Philippians 2:9 says,

     ....God greatly exalted him
     and bestowed on him the name
     that is above every name,
     that at the name of Jesus
     every knee should bend,
     of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth
     and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
     to the glory of God the Father.

-- 

Sincerely,
Cindy Smith
emory!dragon!cms