Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: leesa@frith.egr.msu.edu (Anita Lees) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Prayer, and stuff Message-ID: Date: 12 Aug 90 08:18:35 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 106 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) writes: > >St. Paul, pray for us. > >Hey, you...why don't you pray for yourself? > > Where in scripture does it say that angels can pray? OK: 1) Satan is an angel, albeit a fallen one. 2) in Job 1:6-12, he gets a favor from God by conversation 3) ... many references to angels praising the Lord ... 4) prayer is communication with God in which one praises, gives thanks to, or asks favor from God. :. Angels pray. Very loose logic, but if you accept the definition of prayer, it should be convincing that angels do pray. >Where does it >say that people who have died can pray? In Mark 12:25, Jesus tells us that after we rise from the dead, we become as the angels. If angels pray, so do the risen dead. Now, the question becomes when do we rise from the dead -- at the last judgement, or when we die? Another possibilty would be that, although not risen, the spirits of the dead may be communicated with by us, and in turn communicate with God. In I Samuel 28:8-18, the witch of Endor calls up Samuel's spirit to tell Saul's fortune for him. How can Samuel do that unless he can communicate with either God or Satan? If God, then he is praying; if Satan, add a level of indirection. NOTE: I am not arguing here that it is better for angels or the dead to pray, just that they do or might. >I see lots of scriptures that >say they are praising God. I see lots of scriptures telling us to pray, >while on earth. (also...I don't see any that say to pray for dead >people...) II Maccabees 12:40-46, especially vv. 44-46: "for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death... Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. (NAB)" This shows that it is possible, and in this case righteous, to pray for the dead. NOTE: this scripture does not support the practice in general, and does not deal with the difficulty of wether such prayer is necessary after Christ's resurrection. > Why would a person-in-heaven (I don't really think that's who >scripture refers to with 'saint') be able to pray more effectively than >we can? God doesn't listen to them more than us...he's no respector of >persons. People who respect the saints in heaven do not make a big distinction between the living and the dead in this respect. The Church on Earth and the Church in Heaven are both the Church. I don't think the idea is that they are more effective, just that one wants all the help one can get. There is also some humility in asking others to pray for one, again remembering that the people to whom you address your argument do not feel cut off from the deceased faithful. >I think the whole idea of dead Christians (in the > : > If prayers aren't getting answered, it's our fault, and we need to >change ourselves. We don't need to get more people to help us bombard >heaven's gates. (from the inside or out). That would imply that God >needs to be convinced that we really deserve His help. Well, He wants >to help us anyway. And we don't deserve it. I think that we need to >learn how to pray, not to ask more 'saints' to come to our rescue. Good point. I think this applies equally no matter if the saint in question is alive or dead. I believe that Christ came to right the God-humanity relationship, and that each of us is to pray to God directly. I don't see any harm if someone, out of humility, wants the saints to join with their prayers. I believe that God wants us to be a community, and if someone wants to include the angels and deceased faithful, God will credit it to them as being generous in their love of neighbor. > Why isn't there more real manifestation of God's power in the >world? I hear of (and see at church, occasionally) real healings and >deliverances from all sorts of oppression, but it's not on the scale it >should be. If the church today were as obviously powerful as it was in >the book of Acts, people would be begging to become Christians. Maybe >we need to learn how to pray, and learn how to let the Holy Spirit work >through us, rather than looking to 'saints' for help. Maybe the unbelievers would be impressed if we Christians would stop beating each other over the heads with our Bibles and start praying earnestly (in whatever way we know how) for the good of the rest of the world and its people. Maybe Jesus would be pleased with more unity of spirit and less conformity of practice, as well. If we want to let the Holy Spirit work through us, perhaps we have to be open to Him working through others in ways that don't necessarily appeal to us. After all, "no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except in the Holy Spirit." (I Cor. 12:3, NAB) Let's give each other the benefit of the doubt. > The Bible says that all the promises of God are 'Yes' and 'Amen' to >us... why haven't we been getting answers? If God's not lying, it must >be our praying. Or our attitudes towards each other, which must affect our prayer. "Jesus is Lord"! -Anita