Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!clyde.concordia.ca!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!news From: jimr@maths.su.oz.au (Jim Richardson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo Subject: Re: Apollo X server - next release Keywords: share-mode X11R4 server SR11 development support Message-ID: <1990Aug13.091641.3639@metro.ucc.su.OZ.AU> Date: 13 Aug 90 09:16:41 GMT References: <12761@june.cs.washington.edu> <1990Aug11.153706.22322@alphalpha.com> Sender: jimr@maths.su.oz.au (Jim Richardson) Reply-To: jimr@maths.su.oz.au (Jim Richardson) Organization: Dept of Pure Mathematics, University of Sydney Lines: 97 In article <1990Aug11.153706.22322@alphalpha.com>, nazgul@alphalpha.com (Kee Hinckley) writes: >According to the rumour mill, the next major release of the X server >will be X11R4 at SR11. It will not be share mode. I also understand >that HP VUE 2.0 (which, mind you, has very little if nothing to do >with HP VUE 1.0, the former being an HP product, the latter Apollo) will >run *only* under X11R4. The implication of this is that if you would >like to run the DM, you'll have to run old R3, and if you like the features >of HP VUE 1.0 which aren't in HP VUE 2.0 you'll have to run old R3. ... > >Personally, I'm not affected - I run X-only. However it seems to me that >this royally @#$@# the existing customer base. ... > >I'd love to see this denied. If someone can, please do. Since the X11R3 share-mode Xapollo and the HP VUE 1.0 features mentioned by Kee are already in existence, it should not take a particularly large program- ming effort within HP to upgrade these to X11R4 and HP VUE 2.0 respectively. So I hope the "rumour mill" turns out to be wrong on both these points. But if the rumours are correct, they are very disturbing indeed. We're not using HP VUE here yet, so I can't speak for it. But the share-mode X11 server is elegantly implemented and provides a smooth, gradual and painless evol- utionary route into X for people used to the DM. It allows us to continue to use the DM Editor (in my opinion superior to anything available under X, though I don't want to start an editor religious war), and also to continue to manage windows through the DM, which is convenient, fast, and familiar. At the same time, it gives us access to X11 applications. As I see it, HP has made a commitment to the continuation of Domain/OS for at least some years to come. For example, at the HP/Apollo 9000 Sydney launch on 26 July, in answer to a question from the floor, HP's 68000 Product Line Manager stated (if my notes are correct) that the release of OSF/1 some time in 1991 will not make Domain/OS or HP/UX obsolete in the near term, and that there will be a migration path over a period of years from the two existing systems to OSF/1. It seems to me that withdrawal of the share-mode X11 server from SR11 would not be compatible wth this. It would represent a major reduction in function- ality. Furthermore, it would be a loss in an area that's extremely sensitive from the point of view of migration: it would drive a lot of sites away from X and back to DM-only operations. It's only about two years since we made a decision here to move from VAX/VMS to Domain/OS. The DM was one of the big attractions that drew us to Apollo. We've been through the pain of relearning everything from scratch quite recently enough, and have no desire to have to make another major switch for at least another six or eight years. >Some of you would no doubt like to see DM features added to X as a long term >migration path. This might include a DM-like editor, DM style editing functions >in the Korn shell, DM window manager functions added to the Motif window manager. >These things are all eminently doable. However the groups that would do those >are not technically part of Apollo anymore - they report to Colorado. And frankly >I think HP-proper could care less. I know there is desire to do these things at >Apollo - I think that they'd be a really good idea, especially if the resulting >programs were fed back to OSF and the X-Consortium, or even released on the net. >The DM had some good ideas, the shouldn't end up in a waste bin somewhere. Absoulutely. I'd certainly like to encourage Apollo people in HP to work towards this, if Kee is right and you're in there. The share-mode X server is a brilliant start. But far from having it abandoned, let's see the idea continued along the lines Kee suggests, through the re-implementation of DM functions under X. If this sort of thing is not done, then the "innovation of Apollo", which is -- judging from the 9000 series sales literature -- seen as a real plus by HP, will become just a memory. >But in any case, I seriously doubt that the resources will be allocated unless >the customer base applys serious pressure on HP. Well, come on, customer base, you heard that! The "Open Letter" addresses the issues of post-sales support for Apollo customers, and in Request 1 it asks for Domain/OS support resources commen- surate with what's available for HP/UX. But it says very little about system *development* issues. For my part, given the statements HP had made, these were not such a worry. But the rumours in Kee's posting have alarmed me on this new front. One way to draw attention to this issue would be to mention it in personal cover letters for the Open Letter when (next week some time) we send it out to HP. [Remember the signature deadline is this coming Thursday.] I was all set to buy a couple of 400t's, but I've asked the salesperson for information on a share-mode X server at SR11 and am postponing the order for the time being. The main reason we stick with HP/Apollo here is a liking for Domain/OS and the DM in particular: if we have to change from them, we may as well go to Sun, say, where the performance/price ratio seems to me better anyway, at least on educational discounts. I feel the sales force are most likely to be receptive to questions on the future development of Domain/OS ... after all, they have our interests at heart! :-) -- Jim Richardson Department of Pure Mathematics, University of Sydney, NSW 2006, Australia Internet: jimr@maths.su.oz.au Phone: +61 2 692 2232 FAX: +61 2 692 4534