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From: AR.KSR@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU (Kimberly Rollins)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: How to lie with statistics in one easy lesson
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Date: 16 Aug 90 19:05:58 GMT
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Reply-To: cirocco@max.u.washington.edu
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travis@houston.cs.columbia.EDU (Travis Lee Winfrey) writes:
>[...] For instance, you might take
>a dim view of arguments that linked patriarchal structures to child
>abuse, without knowing that over 90% of the incest cases reported
>to the police and mental health professionals are in fact cases of
>father-daughter incest, and most of them occur in stereotypically
>patriarchal families.  This datum does not indict that type of family
>per se, but it is very disturbing, and it lends some weight in attacks
>on inflexible patriarchal structures and gender roles.

Kent Paul Dolan replies:

|consider "reported"; vaginal intercourse leaves much more
|compelling, easily noticed evidence than either anal or oral
|penetration, so this activity will be more "noticed", and thus more
|often reported about daughters.

|[Actually, anal penetration would leave just as compelling, easily
|noticed evidence   - MHN]

True--also, the statistic says "reported" and not "proven".

|"marriage training".  There is no compelling social call to report
|a
|boy's first sexual experience to the authorities, while we still
|try to protect our "weak, delicate girls" by doing so.

I never heard the term "marriage training" used to describe
father/son or mother/son incest, but maybe in your part of
the world it's a common expression.  If the statistics include
reportings to mental health professionals I would assume that
this figure represents a great deal of confessions by
survivors, rather than solely protective reporting by parents
and other concerned figures in girls' or women's lives.

|Fourth, consider "patriarchal", the "traditional" family structure,
|a likely source of objection to incest on religious and other
|traditional grounds, as opposed to the "untraditional" family, which
|might well consider a little incest OK if it's kept in the family?

On the contrary: most traditional or religious families do *not*
encourage the reporting of (possibly emotionally damaging) incest
because they regard sex as something both private and dirty.
Enlightened families would see victimizing incest as solely the
fault of the perpetrator, and be more likely to report it to the
police.  If a young woman is made to feel guilty about sex, and
is moreover taught to honor her mother and father, would she be
more or less likely to report that her father occasionally
rapes her?

|experienced male child (absent other abuse) is not necessarily
|"damaged property" in the view leading to the decision to make a
|report to the authorities.

If the (male) child feels damaged it will likely come out in
counseling later in life, in which case I think it would be
included in the statistic above.  Since men are taught not to
feel victimized by sexual activity, but rather that it is
something that should be striven for, I would allow that male
victimization is currently underreported; however, I don't
think that makes up for the incredible statistical gap that we
see between male-on-female sexual abuse and female-on-male
sexual abuse.

|Sixth, if the topic is incest, I'm betting on grown siblings and
|cousins as the most frequent _participants_, infrequently if ever
|_reported_.

I would submit that as far as incest *where one participant is
victimized by the other* (nonconsensual incest) there is a
greater incidence among those whose relationship implies a
power differential:  older siblings with younger, fathers with
daughters, uncles with nieces, and the like.  For children,
a few years can provide a tremendous difference in physical
and emotional development.  Consensual incest would not be
reported to police or mental health professionals because there
is no victim.   One doesn't go to the police and say, "I just gave
my friend some money," but one would go in the case of a mugging.

|Statistics are wonderful things, you can use them to prove whatever
|you want...to yourself.  The wider audience is urged to take them
|with salt.  Lots of salt.  That 90% figure proves nothing about
|patriarchal families except that they report father-daughter incest
|a lot, a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Again, I don't think that a family where a girl is taught, "Be
ashamed of your body, don't talk about sex, obey your parents and
God" is an environment that supports telling strangers (police
and counselors) about sexual victimization within the family.


Kimberly Rollins
(Preferred e-mail address: cirocco@max.u.washington.edu)