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From: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us (Doug Philips)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Commercial Forth systems
Message-ID: <1565.UUL1.3#5129@willett.pgh.pa.us>
Date: 21 Aug 90 03:42:20 GMT
References: <9008201424.AA05239@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Organization: String, Scotch tape, and Paperclips.  (in Pgh, PA)
Lines: 65

In <9008201424.AA05239@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>, wmb@MITCH.ENG.SUN.COM writes:

> > What I want to know is why commercial Forths are so bloody expensive.
> 
> 1) Some of them are not "so bloody expensive".  My "off the shelf"
>    Forths range in price from $50 to $200.

Well, if you have been advertising I have not seen your ads.  In most of
the ads I have seen, and have gotten bingo card info on, Forth systems
start near $150 and go up.  My impression is that your prices are an
exception.

> 2) The basic problem is that the market for Forth products is extremely
>    small compared to the market for C compilers.  With a C product, you
>    can amortize your fixed costs over about 100 times as many units
>    as with Forth.
> . . .
> Figure out how much all this [selling Forth systems] will cost,
> and divide that by the number of Forth systems you think you can sell.

I suspected an answer like this.  Now Jax will surely tell us about how
there is a $K billion market for Forth in Embedded Systems and Real-Time
Control.  Last I heard he and Peter were differing on that topic, but I
don't recall what, if any, the result was.

> Even now, not all C compilers cost $100.  A friend of mine is looking for
> a real 32-bit C compiler for a 386 machine to run under DOS (i.e. PharLap
> DOS extender), and he has figured that is is going to set him back something
> like $800.

> Keep in mind that, in trying to sell Forth systems, you will have quite
> a bit of competition at the low end from public domain systems, and at
> the high end from established Forth vendors.

I think this last point (which I moved down from further up in your original
message) is important.  If I were buying a Forth system to support or
develope a commerical venture, I would probably buy a commercial Forth
system just for the piece of mind, and I would probably have the cash to
afford it.  As a hobbyist I can't afford that, and I don't need or want
it anyway.  The question of economics, for me, is this: I have worked on C
compilers.  They are an order of magnitude more complex than a Forth
system.  Maybe even two orders of magnitude more complex.  Given that fact,
I would be willing to spend more money on a C compiler than I would be
willing to spend on a Forth system simply because it would other-wise cost
me more time to do it myself.  So what advantage does a commercial system
have over a shareware system?  Support?  I don't really need that.
Source?  Yes, I want that.  Prebuilt libraries?  Yes, I want that.
Metacompilation?  Yes, I want that.  Documentation?  Yes, I think I'd want
that too.  Do all those difference make up for the price differential
between Shareware and Commercial systems?  No, I don't think that the
extra money is buying enough benefit to be worth it, to me.  Maybe, if there
were a lot of libraries, and a multi-tasking option, and documentation to
go with it all.  Maybe.

> > If a cheap Forth came out, I would buy it.
> 
> Which machine?  I have several inexpensive Forth systems, with source.

IBM-PC/AT Clone.  Please follow-up to this portion via EMail.

-Doug

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