Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: frog!jp@bespin.harvard.edu (John Pimentel) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: The Mormon Religion Message-ID: Date: 24 Aug 90 08:16:00 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Charles River Data Systems Lines: 109 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu >>I think you have proved one point - the LDS are not a Christian church by the >>common definitions of other christian churches. > > no. they're not Christians because Christian churches say so - Isn't that special :) Of course they won't say it, if they did, they would in effect say that they are not. > they're not Christians because their doctrines directly contradict > various basic foundational issues that the Bible sets out as > mandatory to call oneself a Christian. Well, that's questionable. Let's take for example: Christ organizing the church Adventists/Baptists/Disciples of Christ/Unitarians believe that he did not, that his apostles/follwers did. Episcopalians/Roman Catholics believe that he did and they are the church (singly). Neglecting to mention that the RCC started in 1054 AD, while the Episcopalians (or more correctly Protestant Episcopal Church in 1789 or was that the Methodist Episcopal in 1784, both in the US) Mormons (LDS of 1830 AD a continuation of the Church of Jesus Christ of 30 AD) believe that he did also, further that he ordained 12 Apostles (just as we have now). LDS believe that there are offices namely, apostles (mentioned above), evangelists/seventy, pastors/bishops, high priests, elders, teachers, priests and deacons (of which we have all of these offices -- the scripture references to these offices is available upon request). Another example: Virgin Birth/Immaculate Conception/"Mother of God" Adventists -- took upon flesh, conceived of the Holy Spirit Baptists -- "Mother of God", took upon him his second character[Person] Episcopalians -- believe in Virgin Birth and "Mother of God" Disciples of Christ -- are split as to whether or not there was a virgin birth. Roman Catholics -- believe in Immaculate Conception (was free from original sin from her [Mary's] conception -- provided just in case you didn't know). Mormons -- Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary, begotten of the Father. Lutherans -- Christ conceived by the Holy Ghost born of the Virgin Mary. Methodists -- Christ's mother was mortal and his Father was immortal. > some extraordinarily > prominent breaks with Scripture are: that God was once a man, > who somehow "earned" his Godhood, and that men can do the same - Personally, I like the sound of that. That I could be like Him, now, will I get there? That's the problem, but nothing's impossible, just difficult. If you want to sell yourself short, that's your business, but I haven't found anywhere in the scriptures where it can not be done/allowed. > hence denying man's essential hopelessly sinful nature; that Ah, but that's where the atonement comes in, unless you think that's only for "original sin". > Jesus Christ took several wives and fathered children; that That's news to me. There's speculation that he may * a * wife, more speculation that he might have had **two**, but several, is news to this LDS. Children??? More speculation, that's news to me. Mind you, I am not denying this speculation, just labeling it as such. If you want to speculate on these...all the power to you. > Christ and Satan are brothers; that Hell does not exist; that If Christ (more accuratly Jesus) is the Son of the Father and Satan/Lucifier was thrown out of Heaven -- refer you to Rev 12: ?? ,then at some point they were brothers (read spirit brothers). As to hell, we, believe that those who turn away from Jesus Christ and the Gospel once they have perfect knowledge of it or who blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (fine example would be Satan) go to what is called outer? darkness where they will spend eternity, everyone else will receive some degree of glory. > oh, it's a viable "religion". so are Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism, > and the rest. the whole point, tho, is that Mormonism is not > Christianity, despite the fact that it borrows much "Christian" > lingo, along with greatly modified doctrine. Tim, I can only say this: There are many churches now in the world, who claim to be the "True Church", many of which came out of the Protestant Reformation (Lutheranism cir. 1517, Radical Sects cir 1520 [Baptists, in all their varieties, Quakers, Congregationals and Unitarians], Church of England 1534 [Episcopals and Methodists and variations thereof], Calvinism cir 1536 [Presbyterian, various reformed churches -- of which came the United Brethren Church] ) didn't have authority to start there respective churches from the Roman Catholic Church, however, I have been told that authority to start a church is in the Bible. The RCC and Eastern Orthodox came into being in 1054 AD, prior to this it was a state religion starting in 307 AD, after the Christians of the time were fed to the lions (just a sport), and the Apostles were killed. Now the RCC will tell you that Peter handed the keys of the Priesthood to the First Pope of the Church of Rome. Unless this person was one of the Bishops that met in the first of the four councils, then Peter lived a long time, at least until 321 AD, when Constantine declared himself the Pope. BTW, where is the office of Pope in the Bible? >Tim | ARPA: timh@ide.com >Hoogasian | UUCP: sun!ide!timh (415) 543-0900 So, what's left is to study the scriptures and pray for guidance, and accept what you get. --- ------------------------------------------------------- John Pimentel ...!{decvax!mit-eddie!harvard}!frog!jp Disclaimer: The opinion presented, is just that; I take full responsiblity for those parts I've entered.