Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!psuvax1!husc6!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Separation of Church and State Message-ID: Date: 25 Aug 90 01:22:47 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR. Lines: 61 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com writes: >I offer here the traditional Catholic doctrine on the relationship >between Jesus Christ and governments. ... (Lots of information about the contrast between US freedom of religion and Catholic ideas deleted. Joe quotes a lot of agreements etc. to back up his idea that the Catholic Church should have a hand in government and other churches should be prohibited. One of these is a concordat with Ecuador indicating that no other religion would ever be permitted there. I find this interesting personnaly since I was an LDS missionary in Ecuador where I found the people quite friendly and receptive. Obviously the concordat is no longer in force.) >The darling of the present era, and the Western democracies/republics, >is Liberalism, which is the following belief: > Everyone has the right to believe and do as they please, provided > they don't bother anyone else. >This is basically what the U.S. constitution is based on, and is the >reason why we have such things as abortion and legalized pornography. >Strictly speaking, it is both a heresy and a blasphemy. >Because, of course, no one has the right to commit sin. Whether the >sins that people commit involve "bothering others" at some level is >immaterial. No one has a right to commit sin. Well, who says what rights we have and do not have? If (as most Christians undoubtedly believe) those rights come from God then we ought to be careful how we treat them. I think it's rather obvious that God allows us to sin, He even put that tree in the Garden of Eden. Even Jesus, when rejected by a Samaritan village refused to let his apostles call down fire from heaven to punish the inhabitants. Just to present a different viewpoint, the LDS idea is quite opposite to the Catholic view (at least as Joe expresses it). In LDS theology freedom of choice is not only allowed but absolutely necessary to God's purpose. God does not want people forced to accept him. He wants people to grow and learn to follow Jesus of their own free will. This is the only way to become truely righteous, if we refrain from sin because we are unable to do otherwise we haven't done anything righteous at all. If we Accept Jesus at the point of the sword we have not freely and totally accepted him. In fact, LDS belief is that Satan is the devil in large part because he tried to deprive man of his free agency (see Pearl of Great Price, Moses 4:1,3). Of course Satan would still like to destroy the agency of man and has used things like the inquisition and government mandated religion to achieve this end. We believe that government can properly protect the lives, property, and freedom of its citizens but should not prescribe rules of worship or bind the conscience (see Doctrine and Covenants, section 134). The law may apply punishment for crime but should not restrain a person's belief.