Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!porthos.rutgers.edu!christian From: zds-ux!bjstaff@uunet.uu.net Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Separation of Church and State Message-ID: Date: 25 Aug 90 07:51:50 GMT Sender: hedrick@porthos.rutgers.edu Lines: 110 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In soc.religion.christian, Joe Buehler writes: [ Some stuff deleted ] >Catholics see religion playing a vital part in a proper Christian >government. Indeed, one of the very purposes of the Incarnation was to >teach men what constitutes proper faith and morals, so they could reform >their social organisms appropriately. This is called the social reign >of our Lord Jesus Christ, the King. In my opinion, prior to the Second Advent, "Christian government" is an oxymoron. To wit, Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." - John 18:36 In addition, if you are willing to allow for "Christian government", then you must be willing to allow for "Islamic government", "Satanic government", etc. >The darling of the present era, and the Western democracies/republics, >is Liberalism, which is the following belief: > > Everyone has the right to believe and do as they please, provided > they don't bother anyone else. > >This is basically what the U.S. constitution is based on, and is the >reason why we have such things as abortion and legalized pornography. Yes, the U.S. Constitution is based on Liberalism. But the main reason we have abortion and legalized pornography is because our country is populated by sinful people, just like every other country. Many (most?) U.S. citizens do not regard an unborn baby as a person. (I believe an unborn baby is a person.) If most U.S. citizens regarded an unborn baby as a person, abortion would quickly become illegal, because it would be seen to violate the foundational principles of Liberalism. I find pornography offensive, so I don't buy it, and I encourage others not to buy it. But I believe that as long as nobody's rights are violated, any adult has a right to sell anything to any adult. Of course, we will all have to answer to the Judge. >Strictly speaking, it is both a heresy and a blasphemy. Jesus replied: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." - Matthew 22:37-40 >Because, of course, no one has the right to commit sin. Whether the >sins that people commit involve "bothering others" at some level is >immaterial. No one has a right to commit sin. Quite true. Try explaining that to someone who doesn't subscribe to the Christian idea of sin. >Liberalism is quite blasphemous, because it sees the basis of human laws >in Man, rather than God. When considering a new law, liberal >governments consider "how does this affect the rights of men?", rather >than "how is this law in accordance with the eternal law of God?". "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." - Declaration of Independence In my opinion, the State's proper theater of action is our body and our property; the Church's proper theater of action is our mind and our soul. >Essentially, Liberalism is an attempt to found true peace and prosperity >by resting on Man alone, independent of Christ. There may be some truth to this. > Of course, it won't >work, as is amply demonstrated by the U.S. problem with abortion, >pornorgraphy, drugs, etc. Please show me a country with a system that produces better results. >Viewing the present state of this country, I really have to wonder, do >the people really believe in God, Hell, etc.? I think not. What does this say about the job our churches are doing? Remember, churches in the U.S. have virtual carte blanche. > Just >consider the public school system, where God is excluded. What kind of >education is it that doesn't teach children about the fundamental >realities of life? People who establish such a state of things don't >really believe that God exists. In my opinion, the public school system is an illiberal idea. It would be much better if people were free to send their children to schools *of their choice*, whether they be secular private, religious private, or otherwise. >Joe Buehler Brad Staff ...uunet!zds-ux!bjstaff "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." - John 8:32