Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!porthos.rutgers.edu!christian From: gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Separation of Church and State (mostly regarding abortion) Message-ID: Date: 25 Aug 90 07:52:31 GMT Sender: hedrick@porthos.rutgers.edu Organization: Data General Corporation, Research Triangle Park, NC Lines: 85 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article crowe@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Daniel Crowe) writes: > >The first amendment to the US constitution contains the famous "seperation >of church and state" clause. Unless one proposes repealing that clause >from the constitution, the development of law based upon sectarian doctrine >is unconstitutional. That is not to say that laws may not have anything >to do with religion, because religion involves itself in all spheres of >human activity. If anyone with a religious conviction on a given law were >barred from involvement in the political process with regards to that law, >most of the religiously active US citizens would be excluded from the >political arena. I do not believe that this was the intention of the framers >of the constitution. Daniel, I would remind you that this interpretation of the freedom of religion clause is a recent one. In fact, in the beginning, the Federal government was prohibited from establishing a national religion but the states weren't. >Dave's expressed reasons for opposing abortion involve only sectarian >Christian doctrines and should therefore be excluded from the political >process of the development of US law. I happen to agree with Dave's Here I seriously disagree with your thinking. The mere fact that his reasons for opposing abortion are sectarian should not have any import at all on his input to the process. His reasons for opposing such is as valid as those of others who oppose abortion for non-sectarian reasons. The point is that laws are not made in a moral vacuum. When they are, they are an abomination, which is apropos for many laws passed by our Congress. To inhibit a person's freedom of expression and input into the laws of the land based merely on this prescription that it is sectarian is to dis-enfranchise a lot of citizens. When I vote for a politician, I do so based on my Christian view of things. I vote for a candidate who is more likely to give my views a better representation. And when I discuss the rightness or wrongness of a law, I do so from a Christian perspective. Again, I refuse to get embroiled in an argument here about abortion, that is OFM's request. But I do believe that there are substantial reasons, both sectarian and non-sectarian, against it. The other thing that must be considered is that Christianity for many of us is not merely a religion, it is a relationship with the living God. It is a way of life. Our ethics and morals are based upon this relationship. To ask us not to debate the merits of a law based upon this is rather like asking the sun to set at mid-day. If our ethics and morals match some non-sectarian view or reasoning, fine and good. But even if they don't, we must still act based upon what we as Christians believe is right or wrong because that is what we believe God has said to us. For us to do otherwise, would be to negate our faith. > >Although sectarian religious beliefs are excluded from the development of >US law, an individual may choose to violate the law if he/she believes >that the law is in violation of the expressed will of God. Such an action >is illegal, and he/she will have to accept the legal consequences. >He/she may feel that the immediate consequences are acceptable in view >of ultimate consequences, but that is between him/her and God. I would go further. I'd say that Christians are obligated to disobey those laws that conflict with what we understand the will of God to be. If the authorities put us in jail, so what? Did not the Apostles end up in jail for the preaching of the Gospel? Were not our Christian ancestors sent to jail and killed for merely being Christians? Were not many of our ancestors tortured and put to death for not being in the right denomination? I do not see having to pay this price as being too great. But there is yet a better way. We can pray about these things for God has the heart of the "king." When the saints pray, the very foundations of earth can be moved. When the saints pray, God hears and responds. Consider what can happen when only a few Christians take the faith seriously and march forward in faith and the power of the Lord. Consider the spread of the faith in the early days of the church here on earth. And I believe that if Christians around the world were to follow 2 Chronicles 7:14, I do believe that we'd see a movement of God's Spirit not seen since the early days of the Church. I wonder what would happen if say a dozen Christians covenanted together to follow that passage and earnestly pray and seek God's face!? Anyone want to find out?? If so, email me a note. May His joy be yours, Gene