Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!ucdavis!csusac!csuchico.edu!cindy!tempest From: tempest@walleye.ecst.csuchico.edu (Kenneth K.F. Lui) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc Subject: Re: StuffIt Deluxe Message-ID: Date: 4 Sep 90 06:24:57 GMT References: <2146@ux.acs.umn.edu> <1990Aug29.204448.23954@svc.portal.com> <5186@spt.entity.com> <1990Aug30.043630.4167@morrow.stanford.edu> <1990Aug31.170355.28215@svc.portal.com> <5224@spt.entity.com> <1990Sep2.185740.2049@svc.portal.com> <5299@spt.entity.com> < Sender: news@ecst.csuchico.edu (USENET) Organization: California State University, Chico Lines: 137 In-Reply-To: leonardr@svc.portal.com's message of 3 Sep 90 22:14:19 GMT In article <1990Sep3.221419.3494@svc.portal.com> leonardr@svc.portal.com (Leonard Rosenthol) writes: [...] petty issues, as file formats. We allow other types of developers, word processors, spreadsheets, etc. to keep our data hostige in undocumented and/or proprietary formats (ever try to get the MSWord format from Microsoft??), why shouldn't companies such as Aladdin be treated the same?? Perhaps this is different in the way archiving programs are used on the net and in the personal computing community. When one algorithm comes out, there are those who feel they can make it a little faster and more efficient, saying "hey, my version's faster--people should use it." On the other hand, if a new format comes out and catches on, others will want to port to other platforms. This is good--not bad. Leonard, what you give above is a very good analogy to what's currently happening. I feel that there are those who are concerned about what happens when the day comes when either Aladdin or its owner (if it ever gets bought out) decides that "hey, the format and algorithm belong to us; and any entity that has it is violating our rights--we want to be compensated because it has our property." That fear is valid because Aladdin is still a small company and its future in the long run is uncertain. One will never think of something like this happening to Microsoft for its WORD format. It's clear that Microsoft doesn't mind having public documents stored in WORD format and Microsoft won't be taken over anytime soon. So, I see that it is the future of Aladdin that concerns others. They have no reason other than what I mentioned above because the tools are available to create and extract from the Deluxe format; these tools are freely available and have no limits on terms of usage; multi- platforms are possible because: Aladdin is MORE THAN WILLING to work with anyone who wishes to produce stuffing/unstuffing software for both Macintosh and other platforms. [...] They are also working with others to create Classic/Deluxe compatible applications for other platforms including UNIX, DOS, Windows, etc. They want to provide solutions for other platforms, but admittedly they feel (and I agree with them) that it is their best interest to control who gets that information. Aladdin is trying to provide users with new technology and capabilities. They have invested in Stuffit, and they are trying to give something to all of the loyal users with Stuffit Classic & Deluxe. I also see Deluxe giving users a lot of good technology, but I feel that there is one area where they missed it: the format for plug-in modules. The ability to add new compression modules, optimizers, and decoders are fantastic ideas; however, what happened to those of us who want to write our own personal modules? Certainly, the manual could have mentioned where to get more info about writing modules, but it's nowhere to be found. It's like saying GNU EMACS is an extensible editor/application but leaving out the instructions on how to write apps that live within it. I haven't called Aladdin regarding this, but I plan to in the near future. ... Classic/Deluxe archives without cost. Even though the format would still be proprietary, would this act of good will to the Mac community help to smooth things over? No, there will always be those who are never satisfied. We are talking about how easy it is for programmers to do the porting, etc, and the fate of the format. Even giving away StuffIt Deluxe away for free won't do it because it's not the application that's in question, it's the format and algorithms used. But then what about Compactor? It uses a proprietary format and yet, GEnie uses it. You can argue that GEnie is not a public net like Usenet: GEnie will have to pay if someone ever decides to sue, not its users (well, not directly anyway). Lots of people want to protect themselves in preparation for that day and proprietary stuff worries them. Hmm, the Mac was a proprietary platform when it came out in '84... never mind, I was writing out loud. If Aladdin were to make the format public, that might hinder them as they would have to maintain compat with that format so that other applications did not break with new versions since the 'user base' would have fit otherwise. Public formats are both good and bad, but I think that they hinder developers in moving forward - but I repeat myself again. This depends upon the company in question. While Aladdin has more control over its format and algorithms, it doesn't permit others to critique or improve them as quickly. There are thousands of people on the net; there are only a handful at Aladdin. No question, having a proprietary format gives them more control. I don't see it providing a better way to "moving forward." Moving forward according to Aladdin, yes; but not what others may want. I never saw a request of features posted on the net by anyone at Aladdin asking what users would like to see in a future version of StuffIt. If it has in the past, I'm sorry to be ignorant of it. Witness the existence of Compactor and how GEnie ultimately embraced its use. It seems that the Deluxe Better algorithm needs a little more moving forward. I have talked with them at length about this possibility, and I do not see it happening. But you are certainly willing to continue to push It won't do Aladdin any good to release its format and algorithm, and I also don't see their release into the public domain. Releasing it only provides other compression writers like Bill Goodman of Compactor and those who wrote Disk Doubler more leverage. It's a tough world out there and StuffIt Deluxe would be seriously compromised as a money- earning product if its format and algorithm were placed in the public domain. [About a totally public-domain archiver.] GREAT! I think that if someone were willing to do this, then there would be no question. I would stand behind such an effort, providing that it was an application and format that the net could get behind. A format is only one part, applications (etc.) which used this format is another. "That boy was our only hope." -- Ben Kenobi "No, there is another." -- Yoda Both paraphrased. There is still another and that's FSF's proposal for a compression standard. I read on a comp.sys.mac.* newsgroup recently that it will be based on Shannon-Fano trees rather than LZW--ala PKZip. We can be sure that everything that FSF puts out will be free and its source will be available. We can wait for that (though I don't know how long we will have to wait), or have someone write one. It's likely if someone were to write it, he/she won't do it without some sort of compensation. But then there's the FSF, so it may be possible! I too would like to hear other feedback on this issue. Although Marty claims to be representing 'many', I don't really see this. If you are concerned about the issue, I would like to hear about it - either publically or via EMail. This is my feedback. I don't really care about an archiver's format and algorithm as long as it compresses optimally for my application. If something happens to such an archiver in the future that conflicts with my interests, I will use something else--hey, it's no big deal. I can see Marty's concerns and others who feel the same way. Sorry to be so long-winded. This message got a little longer than I expected. Ken -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Kenneth K.F. Lui | Other paths you can use: tempest@csuchico, tempest@csuchico.edu | tempest@{cscihp|walleye}.csuchico.edu __________________________|__________________________________________________