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From: kevin@cmi.com (Kevin Hegg)
Newsgroups: comp.databases
Subject: Re: Oracle for the Mac (really 4D)
Message-ID: <4398@etsu.CMI.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 90 14:06:21 GMT
Sender: news@etsu.CMI.COM
Organization: EDS Corp - Center for Machine Intelligence
Lines: 52
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>regarding: idiot!jay (Jay O'Conor)

>Hmmm...  Either you're missing something or many people are performing
>magic with 4D every day.  One such case is a company started by former
>coworkers of mine in Maryland.  Their company now has several commercial
>packages written in 4D.  They swear by (and at) it.  They're not blind
>to it's shortcomings.  They've learned 4D enough to understand it's
>limitations and avoid them...  

My experience and opinion is that 4D has far more shortcomings than 
virtues. In this day and age when there are so many powerful development 
tools, why should anyone be satisfied with an inferior product.  

>I have been around enough though to realize that not everyone feels that 
>same way.  These friends of mine left their comfortable jobs to create a 
>startup company based on creating products in 4D.  They _are_ sucessful.  
>I would say that being able to create a startup company around 4D 
>represents a very good return on investment.  I'm sure there are other 4D 
>sucess stories like this out there.

I don't dispute this at all, but their success in the business world does 
not mean that 4D is a good product. It simply means they are good 
businessmen. Sometimes your customer mandates a particular tool, so if you 
want the business you do what he says.  Sometimes your customer insists he 
must have the application written on top of a DBMS (even though that is 
not necessary), so if you want the business you do what he says. Even with 
4D's problems it is still ranks high among Mac DBMSs. Sometimes developers 
are unwilling to learn to use more powerful tools, so in order to survive 
they learn work arounds to deficiencies in their current tools. 

>Simply based on the existance of sucessful companies creating products in 
>4D, I'd have to conclude that 4D is OK, and you are unwilling to learn it 
>to the extent necessary (no flame intended).

I think the result remains to be seen. ACIUS is having enough financial 
problems that their future is not certain. With Apple's introduction of 
virtual memory, Unix, more powerful machines, etc. you will see the big 
companies such as Oracle, etc. port to the Mac. Whether they have a 
superior product or not they will squeeze ACIUS.

As far as learning 4D, I know it well enough to go head to head with any 
other 4D developer. Believe me, I am always on the look out for better 
development tools. After becoming proficient in 4D and then comparing it 
to other development tools that I have at my disposal, it just turned out 
to be more inferior.  You are right in one sense, I did not adapt  
my 4D development environment to the point of overcoming all of my 
critcisms. But, the reason for this is that would have been unnatural and 
unproductive. I don't believe in reinventing the wheel, if necessary.

Kevin Hegg, EDS Corp - Center for Machine Intelligence
2001 Commonwealth Blvd., Ann Arbor, Michigan 48105
Phone:   (313) 995-0900  Internet: kevin@cmi.com    Applelink: D5990