Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!apple!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: daveh@tekcrl.labs.tek.com (David Hatcher) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: The Bible and Us: a book review; comments on Mary and Protestantism Message-ID: Date: 14 Sep 90 05:17:32 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR. Lines: 126 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu What I am writing here comes from several years experience in touching both the Protestant and Catholic traditions, Yes as a non-Christian, but as a person who is very much a lover of God. With in the Catholic tradition I often go on retreat to a Trappist Abby. As a result of these retreats, I have had many wonderful and enlightening talks with various Trappist Monks about their inner spiritual life. I also go to Sunday Chruch services at a Protestant Chruch along with other Christian events. Charles Hedrick wrote in reply to Cathy Johnstons article: >[It's a matter of what you mean by mysticism. Normally it implies a >discipline whose goal is transcending our normal human consciousness, >to experience a union with God. The idea is for us to leave the human >plane and join with God in heaven, at least in some limited sense. Personally, I can see no way in which the spiritual life can be separated from mysticism. When one lives spiritually, the mystical aspect in ones relationship with God becomes vibrantly alive. They go hand in hand. Because of the lack of Protestant mystics, along with any real deep understanding among the Protestant community as to what it means to not only be spiritually aware of God but to also grow as close to Him in this life time as is possible, to these eyes, the Protestant thought and way of spirituality actually limit or hinders ones relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Now, I am not saying that I feel that Protestants do not have a personal relationship with Jesus. I want to make that very clear up front. But what comes *after* that personal relationship is established? I'm sorry, but I do not see a whole lot. At least in the way of that continual search for God. The Christian is invited to know the Father through Christ. But it appears to me that that aspect is not explored very much with in the Protestant tradition. It's as if only knowing the second person of the Trinity is all that one can hope for. Yet Christ pointed towards the Father even in His saying that "the way to the Father is through Christ"? To be fair, I also feel that much of the Catholic world also limits spiritual potential, but at least with in that tradition there are places one can go to further ones deeper spiritual experience of God. I can't say the same with the Protestant tradition. Even the concept of actually growing as close to God as possible in this life time seems to generally be an alien concept with in the Protestant tradition. Charles's example of comparing the spirituality of the great mystics to "spiritual athletes" and further implies that their way does not seem entirely healthy to many, to me is a practical example of the miss-understanding of what the mystical or inner spiritual life is all about. And that miss-understanding I feel had been sifted through out the Protestant world until any thought of wanting to grasp a deeper understanding of what it actually means to grow closer to God has been lost or fogged over. To me the result is a very limited spiritual life. The offering of a deeper union with God just is not available. All because of a miss-understanding of what that means the the soul. There is one exception though, and that is with the Quakers. They do have a history of producing some very spiritually aware beings. Charles's challenge to Protestants as to what is the goal of Protestant spirituality I feel is a very good starting point. But I'd like to also challenge the Protestants to just talk about what "spirituality is". Along with that, I would also like to see some talk on the spiritual aspect of growing close to God along with the various aspects of that journey. Also, I'd like to see some talk on what it means to "Worship God in Spirit and Truth". In a men's group that I participate in every Wednesday morning, (this is a Christian men's group by the way) we have been doing a study of Tozer's _In Search of God_. What has really stuck out the most (to me) is that these guys really know nothing about the experience of a deep spiritual life. Ya, they do know the proper beliefs, and they do hold to them. And they talk about their relationship with Christ, and the faith that they hold for Christ, yet in the same breath they know nothing about what it means to grow closer to God. And they know nothing about the deeper side of how to even live with in that spiritual awareness of God. It's like they are spiritually illiterate. They just do not know how to live spiritually. And from what I have seen, that is the norm throughout the Protestant world. The lack of Protestant mystics I feel is the proof of what I am pointing to because to me, spirituality and mysticism are inseparable. One last thought before I finish. Charles also said that: > Spiritual development seems to involve a greater understanding > of God's will for us, a greater ability to show love to others, > a stronger faith in God and reliance on him. I completely agree with Charles here. But I feel that these virtues are greatly amplified when one has opened up their soul to God. That, as far as I can tell, cannot be done with out a deep spiritual life. I do not claim that Protestants do not have these virtues. But I do feel that the way in which they approach the spiritual life, which is really not very deep compared to what it could be, does not offer the opportunity in learning how to open ones soul to the spiritual awareness of God's Grace which I feel we all can agree is the source of true spiritual wisdom. Basically, what it all comes down to is that it is the earnist searching for God that swells from the soul that I feel is lacking with in Protestant spirituality. Please read my .signature. David Hatcher Rabbi Barukh's grandson Yehiel was once playing hide-and-seek with another boy. He hid himself well and waited for his playmate to find him. When he had waited for a long time, he came out of his hiding place, but the other was nowhere to be seen. Now Yehiel realized that he had not looked for him from the beginning. This make him cry, and crying he ran to his grandfather and complained of his faithless friend. Then tears brimmed in Rabbi Barukh's eyes and he said: 'God says the same thing "I hide, but no one wants to seek me.'" This story is told my Martin Buber and is taken from _Gratefulness, the Heart of Prayer_ by Brother David Steindl-Rast who is a Dominican Priest.