Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!know!samsung!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: howard@53iss6.waterloo.ncr.com (Howard Steel) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Poll concerning Jesus's resurrection Message-ID: Date: 17 Sep 90 07:24:20 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: NCR Canada Ltd, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada. Lines: 76 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) writes: >In article howard@53iss6.waterloo.ncr.com writes: ^ >>My perspective was >>and remains that the message is the important factor in this case. The >>validity of Christianity would not to me be undermined if it was found that >>the story was fictitious. If it is treated as a >>"teaching story", it would still hold great meaning for me. >Why would it still hold great meaning for you? Because the truth of a message need not always be verified in an event. When I was younger, I used to pass an old bumb on the way to and from church who would beg money from those he saw. As children we were given some money by our parents, some of which was for the offering, and the rest was for a treat after the service. As children sometimes do, we would snigger and make fun at the beggars expense and carry on our way (never once offering him a portion of our treasure, despite his obvious need). One day, being a little careless, I lost the money I normally take and began to cry as I made my way to the church. The bumb asked me why I was crying, and I wailed that I had lost my money for the church collection (inside I was actually bemoaning the treat that would not be mine that day). He reached an old dirty hand into his tattered jacket and pulled out a dollar, and said, "take this and buy yourself a treat after church, God will understand". I accepted the money and vowed to myself that this would be the last time I made fun of this kindly man. In fact I planned to do something for him the very next day, if I could. The day of course did not come, and it was only a few days later that I learned that the old beggar had died, penniless, of exposure and malnutrition, on that very spot where he had been so kind to me despite the cruelness I and others had heaped upon him. The message at various levels in this is obvious; the story however is a complete fabrication. If I had passed this off as being true, or more simply stated it without saying one way or the other, some people could be moved to reflection. Over the years the story could be told and re-told again, as part of larger group of stories (which could all very well be true). If we learned later that this was not an actual event, would we then deny all the changes that have occured because of the story, or would we throw away the meaning in the story because of this; I don't think so. I look at the resurrection story and what has grown from it. I don't need a verification of that event to justify the changes that have occured as a result of the story. In fact I don't need the event itself any longer, I just listen to the message. >You would be deriving >inspiration from a lie, or from wishful thinking. Is that what you want to >base your life on? No I would be deriving inspiration from a story and the message it includes. > If the the resurrection story is just that -- a story -- >then the only "teaching" I would get out of it is either that (1) there is no >God, (2) He is aloof and doesn't care about us, or (3) He hasn't gotten around >to helping us out of our mess because he wants us to do it. Your points 1 and 2 do not follow from the premise. Neither does point 3, but I'm sure he would want us to work our way out of our mess, but he has provided help. >In any case, your Christianity, which does not need the validity of the >resurrection story, is something quite different from New Testament >Christianity. I think not. I simply say that the event itself is not as important as what we have learned from the story of it. If Christianity had not developed at all, the event would not even exist in your life; it is the truth of the message underlying it that has kept it alive all these centuries. The message in my mundane little story of the beggar is no less real because it is a fable, than the ressurection story's message would be if it were a fable. / / / / / / / / / / :-(I Think, Therefore I Am, I Think :-) / / / / / / / / / / / Howard.Steel@Waterloo.NCR.COM NCR CANADA LTD. - 580 Weber St. N / / (519)884-1710 Ext 570 Waterloo, Ont., N2J 4G5 / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /