Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: timh@linus.uucp (Tim Hoogasian) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Sorry folks, it's NOT all relative. Message-ID: Date: 18 Sep 90 08:51:04 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: IDE, San Francisco Lines: 270 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article daveh@tekcrl.labs.tek.com (David Hatcher) writes: >In article timh@linus.uucp (Tim Hoogasian) writes: > >>>This brings up an interesting question. *Should* Christians join this >>>sort of activity? >> >>prayer, yes. in conjunction with those who ultimately are enemies of >>Christ's Church? emphatically not! > > These folks whom you call an enemy of "Christ's Church" does not > necessarly equate that a person is an "Enemy of Christ". Being > an "Enemy of Christ" and an enemy of "Christ's Church" are two > different things. If you're talking about some sort of earthly institution, I don't disagree. However, Christ *did* set up a church on earth ("The gates of Hell will not prevail against it"), and those who are the enemies of the Body of Christ are indeed enemies of Christ, in God's eyes. > But if you really get down to the grit of all of > this, those whom are being judged to be enemies of Christ's Church > are more than likely just ordinary people who do not believe in the > same outer beliefs as Christians do. So they really are not enemies > of Christ's Chruch at all. They just follow different outer belief > systems. I noted in another post that by Christ's yardstick, this is a moot point. Christ claimed Uniqueness: "*I* am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE comes to the Father, but by Me." Basically, it doesn't matter what your "intentions" are, if you don't get it right. The path to the Kingdom of God is very very narrow. It's as narrow as the Cross on which Christ was crucified. > I have ran into very few people who really consider themselves > as an enemy of the Christian Church or that the Christian Church > is their enemy. And I have never, ever ran into a person who considered > Christ their enemy. I regret having come across as having a sort of "concrete pillbox" sort of mentality, since I don't hate people who do not believe what I believe. But Christ's claim to Uniqueness demands that a person investigate Him, and then decide either for or against Him. Christ's claim does not leave room for "gray areas." Those not for Him, are considered against Him. > What others do see is the sort of thought pattern > as exemplified by this series of articles as a very good example of what > they do not want to become. The energy that I see focused is full > of judgement as to what is in the hearts of others. To me it is very > sad because it is not the sort of attitude taught by Jesus Christ. You're right that Christ wanted to bring everyone to Him. But by claiming Uniqueness, Christ demands that we come to Him on *His* terms, not ours. If we are *for* Christ, we have abandoned all hope that anything but Christ *alone* can save us and bring us into the Kingdom of Heaven. > So, the thread of these postings I feel is a great demonstration of what > I find turns me (and others) away from Christianity the most. I don't > understanding why anyone would want to be apart of so much hate, fear and > judgement. To these eyes, it is just another wonderful demonstration of > the source of bigotry that is fed in the name of religion. Judgmental attitudes which have not basis in Scripture turn me off as well. I don't hate non-Christians, but by the same token, you must realize that my convictions won't allow me to say that "Well, it's ok, God will take you in even if you don't do what He wants." By the yardstick of Christianity, if I say this, I lie and am culpable for your blood at Judgement Day, by having misrepresented Christ, and His Uniqueness. > These kinds of > of thoughts give birth to movements like the KKK, neo-Nazis, the Inquisition > and so on. It's the very thought pattern that Jesus Christ DID NOT teach > in his ministry here on earth. Yet it is being hailed here as one that > every Christian should have. No. You associate faulty earthly institutions with Christ, which is not correct. No, Jesus did not teach those things, and it is very lamentable that Christians have failed in presenting Christ, rather than themselves. > The article by Tim Hoogasian talks as if the Christian should be at > war with all that is not Christian. He has placed the awareness as > though it is a war that Christians must fight with a "them against us" > attitude. It's not a "them against us" point, at least in terms of Christians out to destroy non-Christians. However, you must realize that to the Christian, Satan *DOES* wish to destroy the Body of Christ. You are thinking in terms of modern day Western "tolerance" ideas, which were hardly evident in the early days of Christianity, when someone calling himself a Christian literally put his life on the line by boldly saying that. Have you forgotten that the Romans put Christians into their Colesium (sp?) to be seen eaten by lions for the crowds entertainment? While I trust that that practice does not continue to this day, Satan still works to destroy the Body of Christ, or at least neutralize it. You have taken my reminder to Christians that there must be a demarcating line, and that the idea of "tolerance" of multiple religions is does not equal Christianity, and turned it into an accusation that I "hate" you. You must realize that while I don't hate you or some particular religion, I must be consistent with Christ's claim to Uniqueness. Man wants to believe there is a wide path to God's Eternal Kingdom, and that He'll be "tolerant" of their "mistakes", but this is clearly not Scriptural teaching. That is in fact the Original Lie that Satan used to play on Adam and Eve's desire to be wise, knowing Good from Evil. Satan told them that they would not die by defying God's command, but He lied and they chose to believe Satan, and rebelled. God's punishment was their cost. The path to the Kingdom of Heaven is *very* narrow. Many who call themselves "Christians" will *not* enter in. The label isn't what gets you in; yet we are Justified by God's Grace, not works. > But the Divine is at work with in all of us. We are ALL > children of God. You're taking a Biblical concept far out of context, which is something Satan is expert at - no, I'm not equating you with Satan. While what you say is true in itself, that's like saying a Ford Pinto and a BMW are both motorcars. The Pinto is obviously not the same as the BMW, however! Please don't misinterpret that. I'm not saying here that Christians are "better" than non-Christians. That's not true at all! I'm very much a sinner (sigh), unfortunately! But there is still very much a difference. I have been saved by the Grace of God, symbolized in Jesus Christ's blood. > But if all what is focused upon is a "them against us" > attitude, I see no room where one can see God at work with in others? Look at it from the other end of the yardstick. If it's "ok" for people to refuse Jesus, then for what purpose did He die on the Cross? If there are multiple paths to the Kingdom of Heaven, then God surely must be cruel and perverse for allowing Jesus to be slain for no purpose! > The only result I can see is hurt and destruction because of the > division that results with a judgemental attitude. You're missing the point! I'm not "judging" you as unfit for the Kingdom of God - only God has that authority. All I've done is to make very clear the point that unless you are *for* Christ, at the Day of Judgement you will be counted as *against* Him, and suffer the eternal consequences of that. Christians who waffle on drawing the line will also be held ac- countable by God for having blurred the line, and who can stand against God's Judgement? Personally, *I* don't want to have God asking me those sorts of questions. I already have enough I'll have to answer for. > I know first hand > of that hurt and distruction caused by the type of division that is > being touted here in the name of the Jesus Christ. And I have heard > many stories of hurt and destruction from others whom have also > ran across the division that is being exemplifed here. And I'll bet > many of you have also. Are you excluding me? I've run into that as well, by others who call themselves Christians. But you are missing the point, again. Unfortun- ately, it's all too easy for Christians to get in the way of Christ, and hence turn away non-Christians. If I've managed to do that, then I will have to answer to God for my poor presentation, and have no excuse. > Now, where is there room for loving your neighbor when instead division > and separation is being created with your neighbor because of this > judgemental attitude? How can the full force of the Beatitude's live > with in a heart that is filled full with judgement? Think of this example: if you had a child who was abusing some substance, would you say, "That's ok, it's his life"? Or would you want to get through to him and let him know where he was wrong? Is this being "judgemental"? > How can a person who > has chosen a spiritual path that is other than Christian be shown the > message of love that is the very essence of the teaching of Christ when > there is such a strong underlining tone of a judgemental attitude with > in those whom are claiming to carry the torch of Christ? I'm not "judging" you. But it *is* my job as a Christian to be aware of Satan's subtle attacks on Christianity and expose them for what they are. > I truly believe that any spiritual war that is to be fought is God's > war. When man gets involved with spiritual war, only bad can > come of it. That is why I feel that Christ came to bring love to > our hearts in the first place. We teach best by a direct demonstration > of love and understanding that originates from an open heart that is > filled with love. That is when the light of God shines forth from our > souls the most. Love for my fellow man is not exemplified by a "tolerant" attitude that denies that Christ is the *only* way into the Kingdom of Heaven. That attitude is ultimately cruel, because it says "Well, he's wrong, but he wants to go to Hell, and it's none of my business if he does or doesn't." > Look to your visions of Mother Teresa of Calcutta > for one practical working example of what I am trying to point to > as far as one manifesting that non-judgemental attitude in doing > God's work to bring us all together in Love and understanding, regardless > of the spiritual path of others. Do you think that Mother Teresa does not attempt to bring them to Christ, or that to her all "religions" are somehow equivalent? > It appears to me that if Satan IS at work here, it is in the division > that is being created between His children because of the sort of focus > that centers on and around the outer beliefs of others. To a degree, I'll go along with you. But on the other hand, let us just suppose for a moment that what Christ says about being the ONLY way is the literal truth. What position does that then place the Christian in when he comes in contact with those who suggest that it is NOT the truth? > If in nothing > else the one place where we can come together in agreement is in our getting > down on our knee's and actually pray together. (sigh) You've completely missed the point of what I was saying originally. I was not saying that coming together is not right. I *was* saying that an attitude of "it's all relative anyway" is patently false, and that Christians must resist the subtle siren call of that lie. Certainly Christ wants Christians to be the "salt of the earth", and draw others to him in love. But again, if I do not uphold my convictions, then what good are they? If "everything is relative", then why should anyone be interested in Christianity over anything else? > And from what I have been reading here, Christians can't even lower > their judgemental attitudes long enough even to that. Inevitably (unfortunately) Christians will offend some people. The Holy Spirit is grieved when this happens. But what you're asking Christians to do is to deny the Divinity and Uniqueness of Jesus Christ. You're at base asking us to lie about our convictions, in the name of "tolerance." I'm sorry, but I won't do that. Who is the truer friend - the one who tells the painful truth, or the one who covers up the truth in order to not "rock the boat"? > Now with that > in my sight, why on earth should I ever want to become a Christian? If it's all *relative*, why on earth should you ever want to become a Christian? If there is no uniqueness in Christianity, then why would anyone ever want any part of it? There are *many* religions that don't have such a narrow path to follow - if everything's relative, then *I* am the fool for not living it up and partaking of everything life offers! > Especially when I know and live with in the experience of God's > presence and grace with out the poison of a judgemental attitude that > is being fostered here. Christians have no authority to "judge" anyone - only God does. However, it is another thing ENTIRELY to not stand up for our beliefs. That way lies the sin of being ashamed of our Christianity, so that we will not stand up to defend it. That is hypocrisy, which deserves *everyone's* contempt. > I love God more than anything, and I see > my Beloved manifested everywhere. It causes me great pain to see > people whom claim to know God and His Love be the source of hurt > and destruction with their fellow human beings because of their clinging > to judgemental attitudes. > David Hatcher > > In fact one of the great challenges confronting modern > Christians is that of experiencing Christ in a non-Christian > culture. Precisely because Christianity claims to be a > universal religion we cannot shirk this challenge. > William Johnston > _The Inner Eye Of Love_ > > Tim | ARPA: timh@ide.com Hoogasian | UUCP: sun!ide!timh (415) 543-0900 =============================================================================== #define DISCLAIMER "Are you nuts? I don't represent anyone, let alone myself!"