Xref: utzoo comp.sys.amiga:66679 comp.sys.amiga.tech:14594 comp.sys.amiga.hardware:3672 Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!umich!umeecs!dip.eecs.umich.edu!gilgalad From: gilgalad@dip.eecs.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga,comp.sys.amiga.tech,comp.sys.amiga.hardware Subject: Re: 24 bit graphics Message-ID: <1990Sep23.015155.1483@zip.eecs.umich.edu> Date: 23 Sep 90 01:51:55 GMT References: <1990Sep22.222816.28754@zip.eecs.umich.edu> <10918@life.ai.mit.edu> Sender: news@zip.eecs.umich.edu Distribution: na Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI Lines: 109 In article <10918@life.ai.mit.edu> rjc@wookumz.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >In article <1990Sep22.222816.28754@zip.eecs.umich.edu> gilgalad@dip.eecs.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) writes: >>I think that a large portion of the problem here is that people are >>expecting some sort of magical solution to appear to give us >>24 bit graphics. I do not think that HAME or DCTV are the answer >>at all, as they are very much a kludge and are CPU intensive. > > Huh? How is HAME and DCTV CPU intensive? Its hardware. Maybe you mean that >they use up memory bandwidth like a 16color HIRES display does. As I understand DCTV, it uses the parallel port to pump the additional information to the device. The processor has to do all this work. HAME is more or less a kludge, but you are right, it is not really any more CPU intensive. I should not have put it as CPU intensive. > >>Commodore is obviously aware of what is wanted, and I am sure that >>they are working quite hard at providing a solution. There is also >>the seeming fact that people want all of this at the same cost as >>the normal Amiga box. This is nonsense. If you want 24 bit high >>resolution graphics, YOU MUST PAY! While it would be nice to have >>a 32 bit chipset, I think that they are quite a ways off. >>In any case, I am pleased with the dedication that Commodore has. >> > > My question is, can those 24bit high resolution boards animate in real time? >(60fps) And do they offer compression? DCTV seems to compress video real >well for the amount of colors and can animate in real time 24bit without >requiring 7megs of VRAM for animating or holding images. > By the way, a kludge is anything that gets the job done, and DCTV and HAME >provide short term solutions. Maybe I recommend a IBM+VGA or $10,000 Mac II? > The area that high resolution graphics caters to is for things like ray tracing, solid modeling in general, and several other areas where animation is not important. If you want animation, do single frame recordings. Don't get me wrong, I love the Amiga, and I do know that there are 24 bit and 8 bit boards out there. I'm more interested in seeing the Amiga taking the lead again since it has a combination of one of the best OSes around and a very good architecture. It is interesting to note thayt most of the high resolution graphics machines have very good update times. In general,they can produce adequate animation (at lower resolution). >> >>YAHWITTSD (Yet Another Here's What I Think They Should Do 8-) >> >>Someone should produce a 24 bit graphics card (there are quite a >>few companies doing this right now it would seem): >> > > Yes, but there is no device independant graphics library so this is no >different than IBM's CGA/EGA/VGA KLUDGE! (develop code for each board instead >of having the OS do it) If the Amiga is to be a multimedia machine, it needs >to be fast, cheap, and reliable. How do you do a presentating with a video >board than cant do real time animation? (still frames+video recorder)? > Commodore has set guidelines for graphics and device independence. >>-RISC processor, or 34020 to keep the graphics stuff non-cpu-intensive >>-large dual port memory >>-support for NTSC resolutions >>-support for 8 bpp, 16 bpp, 24 bpp >>-support for user upgradeable memory to say 16 megs of video memory >>-support for interlaced and non-interlaced displays >>(24 bit images are quite large after all) >>-support for high resolutions with additional memory in the board >> -say up to 1600x1280 (this would certainly appease quite a >> few people) >>- BNC connector, RCA connector and RGB connectors for multiple outputs >>- software-wise there should only be the device driver stuff, since >>Commodore is going to take care of the niceties of having Retargetable >>Graphics. > > The only thing Commodore should do is develop a seperate retargetable >graphics library and define a standard. The rest should be left up to >third parties. Why must Commodore always be the one to do everything? >'Commodore should make a DSP' , 'Commodore should make a 24bit board', >'Commodore should upgrade the custom chips to 32bit color and megapixels' > I agree completely here. There are several third party companies that are working on it. >I see nothing wrong with things like Ham-E, DCTV, or the Video Toaster. >They are not kludges in my mind, merely hardware accesories like a Digitizer. >I don't think they promise 'real' 24bit video with 34010's or anything. > By the way, what is 'Real 24bit video' anyway? Still pictures like >VGA? 16.7 million colors? How many have to be displayable at once to be >considered 'Real 24bit'? If DCTV or HAM-E can get just as good results >and save memory, at 1/2-1/3 cost then there's nothing wrong with them. >If the Amiga gets something like QuickDraw and expensive 24bit boards >then the Amiga system+video hardware will be around the price of an >equivelent IBM or MAC system, so what would be a consumer's motivation >to buy an AMiga then? Not the price, and certainly not the software base. I think that you may be getting a little too hyped here. I agree that any such system would be considerably more expensive than the current Amiga. But that is just it: If you want high resolution and high colors, it doesn't come inexpensively (just look at monitor prices for megapixel resolutions 8-( I think that there should be the option of 24 bit graphics though. Commodore is currently working on this though, so I'm not really complaining about anything. In the future I should be able to plug in company X's high resolution 24 bit board and run Workbench on it (YEAH 8-) See ya, Ralph