Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!ucsd!ucbvax!UTCVM.BITNET!MQUINN From: MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 Subject: Re: A low blow from Apple Message-ID: <9009240703.AA21897@apple.com> Date: 24 Sep 90 03:46:53 GMT References: Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Organization: The Internet Lines: 235 >The irrational dislike of Intel chips does not stand up in any objective >discussion. I couldn't agree more! BUT -MY- dislike for Intel chips is not irrational. I have programed with the 6502, 65816, 8086, and the 80286. I had an opened mind before going into all of these and after working with all of them, I have decided I dislike the Intel chips! I see nothing 'irrational' about this. If I had just USED software on them and said I dislike the Intel chips, then THAT would be irrational, but that certainly is not the case. AND, my dislike of the chips DOES stand up in this discusion because it's not just 'speed' I want. If it were, I'd probably get a Mac IIfx. What I want is "speed in a 65816". >The Amiga500, which is the computer most bring up, does not have better >graphics. Apple IIGS Amiga 500 ------------ -------------- 320x200-16colors/scan line 320x200-32colors/scan line 640x200-4colors/scan line 640x200-?colors/scan line (at least 4) 640x400-non existant 640x400-mono? As I stated before, these are the 'supported' modes. Of these supported modes, the Amiga has more colors per screen and a video mode the GS doesn't even have. ...even if it is interlaced, the Amiga has it and the GS doesn't. >But it doesn't have Quickdraw, In my opinion, that's a plus! Quickdraw is just too slow for me. You listed several differences the GS and the Amiga have (most of which were negative for the Amiga), but even if those were the ONLY differences, They ARE similar and therefore worth comparing. >has a small educational software base, Is this a reason for the GS being twice the price? I can't imagine this has anything to do with why it's more expensive. Also, I don't use educational software for it so why should that be a justification to me about the price? What I'm interrested in is what the COMPUTER can do. This is also what should affect the price. When you compare all the pluses and minuses of both computer s (talking about what they can do and what they come with), I can't imagine why the GS is twice as much. >As for the sound not being as good, that is an understatement. Not hardly. The Amiga supports 4 voice sound (that's pretty good!), has built in stereo, and from what an IBM exec. told me, it not only has stereo, but 4 channel stereo... suround sound. This IBM exec told me this while he was doing some routine Apple bashing, so I take that last part with a grain of salt. I've also listened to the sound the Amiga puts out and, to say the least, it's impressive! >>> The GS's OS is just great. > >>Well, it's not bad, but I wouldn't call it great... but I don't like the >>graphical interface (actually, I don't like not having a choice of a text >>or graphic interface with GS/OS). > >That is your opinion. GUI's are the future. You're right. It IS my opinion AND I beleive that GUI's are the future too. It's also an opinion to say that GS/OS is just great! >I just happen to find it well thought out and ahead of most micro OS's. Well, that's an opinion too and can't be a reason for the GS being more expensi ve than the Amiga. I'm sure that there are lots of people that think the same of the Amiga DOS (but I'm not one of them). >Well, I see no reason to dislike the Mac. It is a fine computer. This is also an opinion... a matter of choice. >As for speed, it isn't that fast relative to RISC workstations. True, but it's fast compared to a GS, which is what we're talking about >The speed issue is related to the availability of fast 65816's in quantity. Ture, but they are selling at a 7Mhz (or faster) price. >Do you have any evidence that this is the case? That WHAT is the case? >I doubt if few people, even DOS users, would dare to defend DOS on an OS >basis. Believe me, they do! I have to put up with it every day at work. >The PS/1 is a new computer. The GS's graphics are 4 years old. VGA is even older. AND considering the GS's graphics are 4 years old, then that's another reason that it shouldn't be as expensive. >I do agree that the GS's price should be cut and the computer speeded up >to around 7Mhz. Well, lowering the price and having it sped up was the whole point. >If you want an Amiga, then get one. I DON'T want an Amiga! If I'm going to spend $1000 on a GS, I want it to do at LEAST as much as another computer will do for $500! Also, if 95% of my programing education WASN'T based on the Apple ][, AND if I knew about the Amiga in early '87, when I got my GS, AND if I didn't already have an Apple ][ with a great big software and hardware investment, I would have gotten one. >The connectivity between the GS and the Mac is important to alot of people. Yes it is, but that shouldn't drive the cost of the GS up. The Atari ST can be made into a Mac compatible computer and I -think- the Amiga can too, but to this day, the GS can't (not for long, though). >I must remind you that the target market of the Amiga is different. I must remind You that that's no excuse for the GS to be twice the price of the Amiga. >The GS would be at 7Mhz if such chips were available in quantity. But it isn't, so it shouldn't have a price tag of one that is. If the GS were priced for a 2.8Mhz computer, I wouldn't be dissapointed in the least bit, but it's priced at as a much faster computer, and I want what I pay for. >Well, I assume you knew the specification of the GS when you bought yours. Yes I did. BUT, I DID NOT know the specifications of the Amiga or the Atari ST, nor did I know of their existence. It would have been fine if the GS were the only computer in this category, but when there are other computers with similar or better capabillities for MUCH less, THEN I have a reason to gripe. It's like thinking that there are only three cars: Yugo's, Mercedes, and Porcshes. The Yugo is (in this scenario) priced at $30,000. The Mercedes is priced at $80,000 and the Porcshe at $60,000. So I buy the Yugo. Later I find out that there are a couple of other cars... Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme and a Buick Skylark, both for about $15,000. I know that comparing the GS to a Yugo isn't really fair, but the priciple of the story is the same. I knew what the one was before I bought it, but I didn't have any knowledge of the other. >What Apple does in the future is very relevant to the continued health of >GS and people's software libraries. Yes, but NOT relevant to the fact that it's overpriced NOW. >In any case, if you want a faster GS, get a TWGS or one of the ZIP products. I WILL! But why should I have to pay $1400 (retail) for a <7Mhz GS compared to almost THREE TIMES LESS for a 7Mhz Amiga??? If the GS isn't going to run at 7Mhz, it shouldn't be priced as if it were. >Nobody believes that DOS is an excellent OS. Nobody. WWWWWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!! Have you met EVERY SINGLE MS-DOS USER???? I didn't think so. You really shouldn't make a 'Nobody' statement, especially when you're talking about opinions. I could introduce you to SEVERAL people that think MS-DOS is an excellent operation system. Even the cover of PC Magazine said, "Everyone agrees what the best operating system is..." refering to MS-DOS. They also made that same mistake of saying, "Everybody". >The GS also has software that you won't find(yet) on the PS/1. I didn't say the PS/1 has software you son't find on the GS, I said the PS/1 has software SUPPORT you won't find on the GS. Also, every computer has SOME kind of software you won't find on another. (except maybe the TI-99 hehe). >I suggest you read the list of educational software that comes with the PS/1's >market literature. Why? Even if it's nil, .... It still has great software support. >The built in networking of the GS is essential for it's target audience. I agree, but that shouldn't drive the cost up much at all! >It would be foolish not to have it, Right.... So? >since you have no interest in networking to a Mac, then don't it. I'm not... What does this have to do with the GS being too expensive or too slow? >But that ability is a real value to the GS. The computer wouldn't exist >without it. Well, I agree with that and I haven't said anything against it, except that I have no desire to take advantage of it. >I have already said the cost is too high. Again, that's the whole point of my posting. >People in education don't pay the same price. but not everyone is in education.... The GS is priced too high (I'm aware you agree). >The GS does have a well defined SCSI(optional). The GS has NO SCSI! The GS has no hard drive, printer, monitor, audio digitize r, video digitizer, disk drives, laserprinters, modems, stereo, speakers, joysticks, CD ROM drives, light pens, headphones, fan, surge suppressor, etc., etc., etc...! It DOES have 1Mb RAM, 256k ROM, 16 voice sound, graphics, a 2.8Mhz 65816, keyboard, mouse, slots, etc. etc. etc. If it does not come with the computer, it does NOT have it. You can buy virtually anything for it, but just because you can buy something for it, doesn't mean it has it. If you say the GS has well defined SCSI, then you must also say that it has 7Mhz (TWGS), any and all hard drives that work on the Mac, audio/video digitizers, etc. It makes no difference if Apple makes the extra hardware or not, if it costs extra then it does not 'have' it. >As for the $300 Atari Mac solution, don't forget that it must use Apple 128k >ROM's. I'm ahead of you here. $300 includes the price of the ROMs. Without the ROMs, it's only about $120. >That solution only exists for as long as those ROM's remain available. And the GS only exists as long as it's available. >If you want a Mac, buy one. Same goes for the ST. What the %$#@! makes you think I want a Mac? Or an ST for that matter? All I want is a FASTER GS! ____________________________________________________________________ | | | | This is your brain... | BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm | | This is your brain on drugs... | pro-line: | | This is your brain on whole wheat.| mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com | |____________________________________|_______________________________|