Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!orion.oac.uci.edu!ucivax!gateway
From: hmj2@deimos.caltech.EDU (Helen Johnston)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Girl == woman & man == boy ? (was: Re: Girls, girls, girls)
Summary: French usage
Message-ID: <1990Sep21.044924.7058@nntp-server.caltech.edu>
Date: 21 Sep 90 15:59:50 GMT
References: <27089@usc.edu> <1990Sep18.012351.27167@agate.berkeley.edu> <5779@ge-dab.GE.COM> <13386@netcom.UUCP>
Reply-To: hmj2@deimos.caltech.EDU
Organization: Caltech, Astronomy Department - Pasadena, CA, USA
Lines: 29
Approved: tittle@ics.uci.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: zola.ics.uci.edu

In article <13386@netcom.UUCP>, chrisj@netcom.UUCP writes...

>Just
>to confuse things, I'll mention that the formal address to a married
>woman is Frau Schmidt, and to an unmarried woman or to a girl is
>Fraeulein Schmidt, so that one cannot formally greet an unmarried woman
>without calling her ``little woman'' or ``girl''!  Not having kept up
>with developments in the German language since I graduated in 1969, I
>cannot say whether the Germans have developed a greeting analogous to
>Ms, but I believe they have not.

I can't speak for German here (though I had a conversation with a
German speaking friend some weeks ago on this topic, and I _think_ I
remember her saying it was the same), but certainly in French, where I
was taught at school that 'Madame' was the address for a married
woman, and 'Mademoiselle' for an unmarried woman, actual usage does
not do this.  Although this is still the definition given in the
'Robert' dictionary, an older woman is always addressed as 'Madame',
regardless of marital status.  If you address your 40 year old maiden
aunt as 'mademoiselle', you'll either be slapped or accused of trying
to flatter her!

[This is exactly what me and my sister (then 23 and 19, respectively)
encountered.  We were each unfailingly addressed as "madame" which
always made me smile as I was taught the same as above.  It seemed
that if you were female and had hit puberty, you were addressed as
"madame" (my sister looked about 14).  In any case, this is getting
slightly off topic, so keep that in mind if you want to follow up on
this article.  --CLT]