Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ucsd!ucrmath!alchemy!bbs
From: bbs@alchemy.UUCP (BBS Administration)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
Subject: Re: Woz giveth, Scully taketh away
Message-ID: <186@alchemy.UUCP>
Date: 4 Oct 90 21:04:54 GMT
Reply-To: bbs@alchemy.UUCP (BBS Administration)
Organization: Alchemy Software Designs
Lines: 135

In article <1990Oct4.171048.21481@utstat.uucp> philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) writes:
>In article <184@alchemy.UUCP> bbs@alchemy.UUCP (BBS Administration) writes:
>>First off, let me state that I really enjoyed reading the various replies
>>to my article. Rather than receiving flames, I've learned a great deal and
>>am pleased with the overall outcome. Now, off to quoting things and replying
>>to these comments...

>Well let me say I have not enjoyed this whole train, and I really don't think
>the net is the place for peoples' little experiments of this nature.

Look pal, if that's the way you feel, why not employ the "kill" feature of
your news reader -- or are you the only person who pays for this network
feed. I was curious about why people thought they way they did about the
Mac, so I asked a question. Needless to say, I've had a variety of
responses, many by mail, most very informative. Yours was the first to
attack me in my attempt to obtain information. I didn't consider it a
"little experiment" but a valid question that others might find interesting
as well.

>>I think it's more like *any computer* and a Macintosh are radically
>>different computers. The Mac was one of, if not the, first computer to
>>have ONLY a graphical interface. Now this is becoming commonplace, even
>>the GS and IBM PCs are adapting. I think it's for the better since it
>>takes less time to teach people how to be productive with a computer
>>(training can be very expensive, especially when trying to teach people
>>how to use brain-dead MS-DOS).

>Your assertion re the training time being less for a computer with only a GUI
>is really on shaky grounds. Apple loves quoting these Peat Marwick studies,etc..while the other camp points to studies which indicate people trained on Macs
>tend to produce documents which are less rigorous in their logical foundation.
>Nevertheless, will you give me a break on this training time stuff. For simple
>applications it is very easy to design a menuing system to launch whatever
>programs a person is using. This can be done on MS-DOS,Unix,etc...computers.
>For more complex programs if a person needs icons to launch programs and handle
>file i/o, then I doubt they could handle the programs anyways.

Well, when I once worked for a government research laboratory, I noticed
how people had a difficult time learning how to use programs that ran on
their PC and MS-DOS. I finally got them to purchase a few Macs and
suddenly those people never asked me any more questions about how to
make things work. When a new secretary arrived, I spent about two days
explaining things compared with about a week and constantly answering
questions on an almost daily basis when using a DOS machine.

Maybe since I read Mac magazines and not DOS magazines I haven't heard
the conflicting reports on how Mac users "produce documents which are less
rigorous in their logical foundation" but I find that hard to believe. So,
I move from a DOS machine to a Mac and suddenly my IQ drops; please!

And finally, it's not really the menuing system that I'm saying is so
great because you could use ProSEL for the II, and all kinds of things
for other machines, but I'm talking about how nice it is to do the
simple things: like format a disk, copy files, find things, navigate
directory structures, simple networking. These are the kinds of things 
the Mac makes easier, not just launching a program because it's an icon.

>Would also please note that Windows3.0 , OS/2, NeXTStep, OpenLook,etc...do not
>give you ONLY a GUI. They provide for a CLI. In my opinion, this is a serious
>weakness in the Mac OS( and GS/OS).

Yes, in your opinion. In my opinion, because I am a programmer too, I
like to have a CLI as well. But ask the majority of people in business
whether they care about it and I think both your opinion and my opinion
are in the minority.

[I talked about how myself and many others moved from the II to the Mac]

>It's hardly surprising your friend has moved on to the Mac, given that he's
>now a Mac consultant- no doubt setting up Appletalk networks, teaching
>Pagemaker,Illustrator,etc...One can't really take these things seriously. It
>always amazes me the money people pay out to "consultants" who come in and
>hook up an Appletalk net for them using phonenet.

Hmmmm. Well, I guess I'm a bit JEALOUS of his job too. I sometimes work
for him or just hang out with him when he goes on a job, and it IS
laughable what he gets paid to do. He's not a CS major or a graduate,
and just likes to play with Macs. Yet, I went to college and work hard
while he makes upwards of $85 and hour. Outrageous. But to say that it
cannot be taken seriously is ludicrous. There is a market, and he fills
it. Regardless of how stupid it is, or how much he gets paid for doing
so little is not the point.

>It may be of interest to you, since we are in the process of describing our
>friends' computer preferences, that most of the really good programmers
>where I work, who were enthusiastic when the Mac first came out, have ALL
>abandoned the Mac. They have moved on to platforms which are more powerful
>and easier to program.

Yeah, well I have too. I found the documentation of Inside Macintosh
to be overwhelming and writing even the simplest of programs is a
major ordeal when compared to other operating environments. Like they
say, there's something like a year or two learning curve to get up to
speed on the Mac, and I don't have the time to invest right now. I've
decided to stick with something I know and C/Unix works just dandy for
me now.

>>Then again, I wish the
>>whole world would switch to Unix/Mach and NeXT Step! :) :) :)

>As for your assertion that you'd wish the whole world would switch to
>Unix/Mach,etc...that simply tells me where you are coming from. It also
>tell me you haven't really thought out carefully the issues involved in
>home/educational/personal computing. As a consequence we have had to
>put up with days of nonsense. Next time, why don't you just talk to
>your friends when you want to know more about something?

Has anyone ever explained to you what a smiley means? Yes, I went to a
university where they taught us how to use Unix and as a programmer, I
find it the best development environment around. Also, I've seen and
used the NeXT and find its' GUI to be the most elegant. Obviously, if
I had my way, I'd like this to become a dominant force in the computing
world. At the same time, I understand the for the home/educational
market that requiring users to understand the complexity of Unix is
simply not feasible, and since you know that too, I find your comments
unbecoming at best.

And as for "days of nonesense" I have written but three articles (this
being the third) all with the same "Subject:" which could have been
killed if you were more proficient with your news reader. And suggesting
that I limit myself to my friends when I want to know more about
something is ridiculous -- what is the USENET for -- people who want
nothing but press releases? Where does curiosity come in?

I find it really easy to skip articles that don't interest me, what
seems to be your problem?

>Philip McDunnough

-- John

John Donahue, Senior Partner | UUCP: ucrmath!alchemy!{bbs, gumby}  | The Future
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