Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!o.gp.cs.cmu.edu!netnews.srv.cs.cmu.edu!gerry From: gerry@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) Newsgroups: comp.windows.ms Subject: Re: Windows 3 criticism Message-ID: Date: 3 Oct 90 14:01:25 GMT References: <4297@rex.cs.tulane.edu> <57914@microsoft.UUCP> Sender: netnews@cs.cmu.edu (USENET News Group Software) Reply-To: gerry@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU Lines: 80 In-Reply-To: sunni@microsoft.UUCP's message of 2 Oct 90 22:22:05 GMT In article <4297@rex.cs.tulane.edu> keating@rex.cs.tulane.edu (John W. Keating) writes: >Gerry@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes: >> >>In article dve@zooid.UUCP (David Mason) writes: >> >> I can't understand people like John Dvorak at all. He seems to be a total >> opponent to Windows. Do these people not see that Windows is much more >> effective and powerful than straight DOS? >> >>This is never the case and never will be the case when you compare a >>toy operating environment (Windows 3, Mac, NeXT) to a command line >>oriented interface (DOS, UNIX). Now, don't get me wrong, DOS sucks >>rocks and is horribly broken, but the ability to do things at the C:> >>far exceeds any point and click ability. > I think this guy suffers from the "Real Men don't use Menus" complex. Sunni Menus are okay, if I can design them and if I don't have to use them. For instance, I use SunView (and the same comments will hold for X, News, etc.) The menu I use most often is the main menu which allows me to open new shells, etc. I tailored the contents of that menu to include only those things I want, none others. I can also call up each of these items from the keyboard, but in these cases the menu is generally quicker. Also, unlike MS Windows, this menu appears anyplace on the screen, just click the right mouse button. I don't have to move the mouse to some predefined location first. However, in application programs, menus are usually the fastest way to impede productivity. Take FrameMaker for instance. These are things I can easily do with TeX that can not be done with FM without a great deal of searching, clicking, cursing and using the program in ways that the designers did not intend. Are the designers stupid? Probably not, but they are incapable of predetermining everyones needs, which is why menus are bad. You are limited at the C:> to how many parameters (documented or not) you can remember. At least in Windows it's self explanatory. Most people remember most of the commands they use regularly, its not too hard. (If you find it difficult, then I wonder about the quality of te rest of the folks at MS... maybe that explains some of the brain-dead products that MS produces...) Anyway, if I/any person can not remember a command, you simply fire up your on-line help system. NOw, I am the first to admit that UNIX documentation sucks, but if it were rewritten ala VMS then anyone could sit down and start working easily. As to you comment about windows being self explanatory that is kinda true, but it is also like saying that anyone can get in a car and drive, but a jet requires more learning. This is true, but I'd rather fly the jet than drive the car. I think maybe you are just intimidated by the fact that there will be people who can use computers and won't have to have you there telling them what to type in and thinkg that you're a genius because you can remeber every damn backslash, parameter and directory name. So, someone from MS finally speaks up, but quite incorrectly. If more people could effectively use computers, my job/life would be MUCH easier. You see, I am considered to be a guru and am constantly being asked questions. I would like to see better user interfaces, and MS Windows MAY be a step in that direction, but it must be clearly understood by SW manufacturers that they should under no circumstances take away the power of the command line interface from those of us who want to use them. (Actually, this conversation reminds me very strongly of gun control nuts and the right-to-lifers... two groups who portend to know what's best for everyone and will enforce their views regardless.) gerry -- gerry roston, field robotics center robotics institute, carnegie mellon university pittsburgh, pennsylvania, 15213 (412) 268-6557 gerry@cs.cmu.edu