Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: farkas%qual@sun.com (Frank Farkas) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Nature of the Godhead (was Re: Book of Mormon ... Mother of God) Message-ID: Date: 27 Sep 90 08:13:47 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 153 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , farkas%qual@sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: >In article , fuzzy@portia.stanford.edu (Daniel Zappala) writes: Our moderator responded to my explonation regarding how it is possible that the Father, the So and the Holy Ghost are separate beings, yet they are one God, by saying: [Long quotation omitted. I noted that LDS concepts seem to be based on the concept of Gods that can be the source of one of many universes, whereas traditional theology assumes there is a single God that is the source of all that is. However we relate the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, if we want them all to be truly God, and consider there to be only a single source of everything, then we somehow have to end up rolling Father, Son, and Holy Spirit up into one God. --clh] First of all, I am not sure what it means that God is the source of all things. If you refer to the so called creation out of nothing, that is another para scripture without any Biblical foundation. What the Bible says in actuallity is that God organized the world out of choas. The Hebrew word which is translated as create, also means organize. Lets look at what it means if I, you or anyone else creates something? Does it imply that we have created something out of nothing? Of course not. I accept that one of the atributes, or characteristics of God that he is the creator of all things which you see around you, including our spirit and of course our bodies. If we examine the Bible, than we find statements, over and over again, that He is the creator of all things. Most people believes that the Bible refers to the Father. However, when I get to the new testament I find out that the creation of this world and others was actually done by the Son. Hebrews 1:2 =========== "...whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." >Note however that all of this is basically irrelevant to most of the >Scripture references you have cited. You cited passages where Jesus >talked about his unity with the Father. Remember that orthodox >Christianity has two doctrines that talk about the relationship >between Father and Son: the Trinity and the Incarnation. We consider >humans to be a different kind of thing from God. The Trinity talks >about the relationship between the Father and the preexistent Son -- >the preexistent Logos referred to in the prolog to John and such >passges as Colossians 1. The Incarnatino talks about the relationship >between this preexistent Logos and the human being Jesus. The claim >is that the Father and the preexistent Logos are of the same >substance, namely "divine", and Jesus is of a very different >substance, namely human. So in fact orthodox Christians agree with >your assertion that the Bible doesn't claim that God and Jesus are of >the same substance. The claim is that Christ has two separate >substances: divine and human, which however are united in such a way >that they form a single entity. > I believe that when the philosophers gets hold of the scriptures, they get into a run away condition and trying to explain things in a complicated way as to assure their own importance. When I read the Bible I understand that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are three seperate individuals, yet they are all one, they all agree. I have no problem with this. The concept of the Trinity is unexplainable, and not understandable. Only self serving philosophers could come up with such discriptions of God, as this one(this happens to be the Presbyterian description of God, Presbyterian Church Confession of Faith): "There is but one living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts or passion, immutable, immens, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of his immutable and righteous will, for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long suffering, abunded in godness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and with all most just and terrible in his judgements; hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty." Now, compare this with the testimonies of those who have seen him and talked with him as one man talks with another and what the Bible has to say about him: Jacob's tetimony - Genesis 33:30 Mose' testimony - Exodus 24:9-10 Exodus 33:9-11 Paul's testimony - Hebrews 1:3 Stephen's testimony - Acts 7:55-56 John's testimony - Mathew 3:16-17 Joseph Smith's testimony- Joseph Smith History 1:16-17 (quoted below): "...I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me." "It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. one of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other-This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" Deut 4:28 ========= "And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell." John 17:3 ========= "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." There is some thing terribly wrong with the philosophers idea of God. Ortodox Christian believes are based on philosophers description of God, not which is provide by revelations and testimonies recorded in the Bible. If it is true that God is "incomprehensible", than what chance do I have to gain eternal life, based on what Jesus said? How can I possibly come to know him? If he is "without body, parts or passion", than who is Jesus? Why was Jesus resurrected with his physical body? Why didn't he just return into a "pure spirit", without having a physical body? Are you telling me that the only begotten Son in the flesh of God the Father has a body and his Father don't? How can he be without passion? The dictionary states that passion means: 1. Suffering of Jesus Christ on the cross. 2. Any emotion as hate, love, etc. To me, the above quoted Presbyterian, and other like descriptions of God, is nothing but some mumbo jumbo. It doesn't help me at all to come to know God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. In fact, if I believe them, it would become difficult, or impossible. >--clh] With brotherly love, Frank [I was not attempting to convince anyone of the Trinity. I brought it into the picture simply to provide a comparison with LDS beliefs. My goal in this discussion has not been to convert any LDS, but to try to make sure I understand what they believe. In fact is is possible to express the Trinity in ways that do not depend upon neo-Platonic philosophy. It is also possible to connect it pretty closely with the Bible. But since we had discussions of that sort of few months ago, I was (and am) avoiding doing so again. I believe that my basic goals have been achieved. I think I do understand the difference in our ideas of God, and how other differences follow from that. I'd summarize it by saying that the mainline Christian concept is based on a strict monotheism: a God whose nature and power is such that there can't be another like him. Thus if the Father and Son are both truly God they must be in some way the same God. The LDS idea seems to be what I'd call henotheism. I.e. the Father is clearly in control of our universe, but his nature is not such as to prevent there from being others of the same kind. I'm avoiding making the standard accusation of polytheism, because that doesn't seem quite fair. While others may end up as gods in their own right, it seems clear that at least in our universe LDS do agree on the preeminent authority of God, and our complete dependence upon Christ. --clh]