Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!know!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!isi.edu!vaxa.isi.edu!smoliar From: smoliar@vaxa.isi.edu (Stephen Smoliar) Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy Subject: Re: emergent properties Summary: on thinking and feeling Message-ID: <15238@venera.isi.edu> Date: 10 Oct 90 14:55:00 GMT References: <3499@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> <1990Oct3.183522.17076@riacs.edu> <3549@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> <45348@apple.Apple.COM> <3560@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> <4152@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu> Sender: news@isi.edu Reply-To: smoliar@vaxa.isi.edu (Stephen Smoliar) Organization: USC-Information Sciences Institute Lines: 61 Keywords: In article <4152@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu> cjoslyn@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu.cc.binghamton.edu (Cliff Joslyn) writes: >In article <3560@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> minsky@media-lab.media.mit.edu >(Marvin Minsky) writes: >> The joke, to me, is >>that THINKING is the glorious part of being human, and I have not the >>slightest reason to suppose that Neal's emotions when transfixed by a >>stupid blue sky or (I dare to say) stupid Rembrandt Portrait that >>people think show the character of a mind from the lines in a face -- >>that those emotions are any more subtle or elevating than those of a >>mouse under whichever conditions evoke similar cognitive arrests. > >To conclude, it seems extremely short-sighted to dismiss the >emtional/aesthetic as subordinate to the rational. Having read both sides of this story, my own opinion is that such a dismissal would constitute a misreading of Minsky's original observation. The problem here seems to stem from Cliff's attempt to use "rational" in his interpretation of Minsky's use of the word "thinking." Now perhaps too much exposure to THE SOCIETY OF MIND is beginning to go to my head (play on words sort of intended); but one of the joys of that book was that it shook me free of any instinct to try to equate those two words. To try to reduce the matter to the brink of over-simplification, thinking is what we do with our minds as we interact with the world around us. It is not necessarily rational according to many (most?) existing standards of rationality in logic (and perhaps epistemology, as well). Indeed, even if we give up the logical position and pursue the course of philosophers who simply wish to account for explanatory laws, we are still liable to be frustrated. The fact is that there are plenty of things which we do with our minds which are downright irrational, and that it one of the things which makes us human. Having cleared up that matter, I would say that we probably have a situation in which what we do with our emotions is prior to what we do with sentential forms (putting dispositions ahead of propositions, as Minsky did in his original K-lines paper). However, what we do with our minds (which is to say "thinking") is prior to any manifestation of aesthetics in our behavior. Since I can't see a blue sky here in Los Angeles, let me pick on the sea instead. I would argue that there is no such thing as a spontaneous response to the sight of the sea. We cannot avoid responding to the sea on the basis of any number of memories we have had, including books we have read, movies we have seen, and (particularly in my own case) music we have heard. (Vaughan Williams is forever with me.) In other words whenever I react to the sight of the sea, my mind is VERY BUSY, indeed; and if it were not busy, I would not be having that reaction. If I detach my mind from the experience, the sea becomes just as "stupid" as Minsky's blue sky and Rembrandt collection (which I cannot look at without remembering that old Charles Laughton movie, just to take another shot at the same point). The only thing which is troubling about Minsky's position is that it turns our attention away from any sense of aesthetic universals, but I would say that aesthetic theory has needed that kick in the pants for quite some time. ========================================================================= USPS: Stephen Smoliar USC Information Sciences Institute 4676 Admiralty Way Suite 1001 Marina del Rey, California 90292-6695 Internet: smoliar@vaxa.isi.edu "It's only words . . . unless they're true."--David Mamet