Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!ucsd!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: ok@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (Richard A. O'Keefe) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Checking your mind at the door Message-ID: Date: 7 Oct 90 03:18:53 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Comp Sci, RMIT, Melbourne, Australia Lines: 64 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In case I give the impression that I'm pouncing on John Graves, I do want to apologise. His "fault" is that he openly explains things. That's the very kindest thing anyone who disagrees with me can do. In article , jag@cello.mc.duke.edu (John Graves) writes: > Jesus spoke with authority because he believed in the loving God, a personal > close God. THis was a major paradigm shift. The one God that each of > us can know. The kingdom of God is within. "Jesus spoke with authority because he believed..." There's a danger of my misunderstanding this. I can grasp "Jesus *sounded* authoritative because he believed ...", that's within my comprehension. But when I mean, and what Catholics and Pentecostals and many others mean when we say "Jesus spoke with authority" is "whatever he sounded like, Jesus actually *possessed* authority to proclaim and command what he proclaimed and commanded", and we commonly tack on "no man ever spoke like this", denying that any other human being ever possessed that quality of authority. Mohammed believed that Allah is the Merciful, the Compassionate, that He is personal, that He is closest. If having that kind of belief is the ground of Jesus' authority, then did Mohammed have the same kind of authority? If not, why not? At a time in my life when I badly needed to talk to someone, a Jew helped me. (By *explaining* to me, how else?) The thing which shocked me most was the discovery that I had more in common morally and theologically with him than with a particular person who appropriated the name of Christ. Not just that, but his emotional attitude towards haShem was astonishingly similar. Now I am not talking about a Reform Jew here, I'm talking about an Orthodox Jew. There seem to be precisely two differences between us: "was Jesus God and Man, or only Man," and "how many of the 613 commandments are still binding". It's due to his influence that I read soc.culture.jewish, though not sharing their beliefs I don't presume to post there. This makes it very hard for me to believe that Jesus' beliefs about God constituted "a major paradigm shift". My friend's awe, constant respect, and love for a loving personal close God is firmly grounded in the Tenach and in Rabbinical tradition. Read some of the homilies posted in soc.culture.jewish and it is impossible to see a "major paradigm shift" except concerning those two points. Indeed, my Jewish friend is able to find parallels for just about everything Jesus said except concerning His divinity. There's a weakness in my position here of course. I am not a Universalist. I am convinced that the Gate is narrow, and that few enter. But the Jewish religion stands in a peculiar relationship to the Christian: unless you go down the path of Marcion (and claims of "a major paradigm shift" between Jesus and the other Jews who preceded him have an *awfully* familiar sound) you find that the Jewish religion is not so much wrong as surpassed. I hope that somehow, the Lord will continue to redeem His special people. I wish I could be sure about this one way or the other, and have to keep on studying the matter. One thing I can say: having a Jew who knows you are a Christian does *wonders* for quite a number of temptations; I have to live up to my principles (not his) so that I can keep his respect! -- Fear most of all to be in error. -- Kierkegaard, quoting Socrates.