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From: chris@com50.c2s.mn.org (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.telecom
Subject: Re: Fraudulent Coin Calls
Message-ID: <13540@accuvax.nwu.edu>
Date: 11 Oct 90 18:30:50 GMT
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X-Telecom-Digest: Volume 10, Issue 736, Message 8 of 9


In article <13166@accuvax.nwu.edu> dhepner@hpcuhc.cup.hp.com (Dan
Hepner) writes:
X-Telecom-Digest: Volume 10, Issue 722, Message 8 of 9

>[The Moderator writes]

>>It still does not lessen the illegality of it, nor for MCI.
>>You cannot take a group of people, based on their ethnic origin, for
>>example Chinese or Egyptian people -- and who, after all, would be the
>>most likely users of international calls to those countries? -- and
>>say or imply to them "you cannot be trusted to make a call to your
>>home country on credit; you are likely to defraud us."

>I'm puzzled by the Moderator's strong stance on this issue; does he
>have reason to believe that there really isn't massive fraud?  Does he 
>suggest that massive fraud must be tolerated (and paid for by you 
>know who) to protect some "presumption of innocence"?  Does he actually 
>believe that MCI or AT&T really don't want the money of certain ethnics?

>[Moderator's Note: In lots of other ways, 'presumption of innocence'
>is a very important and desirable attitude, regardless of cost. Why do
>the telcos get to be an exception?  Yes, there are problems with
>fraud, but there are protective techniques in place. A call 24 hours
  ....
>problem' here a year ago did not indict all Nigerians. Visa, Diner's
>and American Express cannot turn down citizens of China, Israel or
>India as a class; AT&T / MCI should not be allowed to do it either.  PAT]

That last is thought provoking to me.  Do we have evidence or proof
that credit card companies do _not_, in fact, blanket turn down
applications from citizens of say Nigeria or Brazil?  And maybe the
situation is somewhat different between VISA and MCI, for example.  In
the former, if someone calls VISA and says a charge is not one they
made, and refuses to pay the bill, chances are if VISA cannot prove
they made the purchase, they will at minimum invalidate the account
due to suspicion of theft.  And the consumer may still have to pay
$50.  But if someone claims hundreds of dollars worth of phone calls
were not theirs, what happens?


   ...Chris Johnson          chris@c2s.mn.org   ..uunet!bungia!com50!chris
 Com Squared Systems, Inc.   St. Paul, MN USA   +1 612 452 9522


[Moderator's Note: The same thing, more or less. The PIN becomes
invalidated, and under some circumstances the card holder has to pay
$50 for not acting as promptly as possible to have the card shut off.
You can call AT&T 24 hours per day to report abused, stolen or lost
calling cards, just like any credit card.  And I think you have the
moral and legal obligation to assist AT&T in preventing fraud on your
account.  PAT]