Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!snorkelwacker!apple!uokmax!d.cs.okstate.edu!minich From: minich@d.cs.okstate.edu (Robert Minich) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc Subject: Re: Next intro: any effect on Mac _high-end_ prices? Message-ID: <1990Oct13.231403.22834@d.cs.okstate.edu> Date: 13 Oct 90 23:14:03 GMT References: <2886@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM> Organization: Oklahoma State University Lines: 172 If you don't give a hoot about comparing NeXT to Mac in any form, even though I AM a Mac supporter, better skip this right now. (Long quotes to preserve authors' intents...sorry) A while back, ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger) wrote: | | Where is it that Apple and NeXT are in any serious | competition with each other? (In ego perhaps) but | Joe Average is not going to run out and buy a Unix | box. If you think they are, Why can't you buy a Sun | or other Unix box at the local computer store? (outside Xenix) | I think that its somewhat obvious that Unix is not for the | masses no matter what front end you stick on it. Software | for Unix platforms is usually incredibly spendy as well. | So It is my opinion that Apple is not really in any | significant competition with NeXT with some certain | Market exceptions that I don't think are all that ^^^^^^^^^^ | significant..... I could be wrong, but I doubt it.. And I replied: | | So, the IIfx and the IIci are not that significant to Apple's product | line? They're aimed at a similar audience who wants and can afford to | pay for some performance. In that market, NeXT has a basic offering | that, IMHO as a die hard Mac user, walks all over the IIfx at a third | the cost. (Add up monitor, enet card, some software, ...) The new | NeXTs won't magically rise to preeminence because of (1) it's heart of | UNIX (2) it's not already in millions of offices and (3) it has a | small, high priced software base. (2) is a matter of marketing while (1) | I can't really make a valid comment on since I haven't done any sys admin | things with a NeXT. With all the rave reviews for the interface builder, | I suspect (3) might come quicker than you suspect if sales take off. If | were at Apple, I'd sure as heck be interested in going after market share | as aggressively as NeXT is. Or would that be to realistic of a view? And now, Norm says: | | Robert, you missed the whole point... Unix is NOT for everyone. | The only thing that NeXt Runs under is Unix...While the IIci | and the IIfx are high performance machines, and can run AUX, | Joe Average is NOT buying AUX. You might, maybe I will, but do | you really consider yourself an "average" computer user? I doubt | it. I think I understand your original point and I pointed out that I have no experience with sys admin type things on the NeXT (typically the most guru-ish thing about a UNIX box). I think that you missed my point that Joe Average doesn't go out and buy a IIfx or IIci either. Yet this is a very significant market for Apple, who claims to be an innovator in the computer industry. Do you seriously think Apple doesn't care about the "power" user? That once a Mac user becomes sufficiently advanced, they will have outgrown what the Mac can provide? | My Comment was pointed to the very fact that Unix is NOT for | everyone and that by this very point are Apple's platforms really | in any direct competition with NeXt? I don't think so. Perhaps | when you install AUX, but the actual number of users there I | suspect is quite low. I think you mean "everyone" to extend only towards the less technical computer user. I argue that it also extends toward the most technical ones as well. Apple has shown their intent to attract these users to the Mac in the form of the IIfx and the ads concerning it. You seem to be hung up on what UNIX is. Do you mean that preemptive multitasking is not for everyone? That virtual memory is not for the masses? That device independence is only for gurus? Or are you referring to the interface through which we deal with the OS? (I assume this is the case.) I assert that the parts of UNIX that cause most people to vomit can effectively be hidden. Whether NeXT does this effectively, I don't know. Anyone have one that I can play with? | Apple is pursuing Market share with the new releases, while we | can easily slam some of the design decisions they made in new | machines, I don't think that we can effectively speak for the | new computer user that will want the ease of use that the | Macintosh provides and perhaps with some decent street pricing | will be able to get the power of a Macintosh for $2k or less. | Maybe not the power houses like the IIci or IIfx.. but the new | Mac's will serve I think a missing market that Apple has been | overlooking for a while... Now you're talking about the area where Apple has a chance to do some serious amounts of business. Barring massively lower prices than I've seen tossed around, I don't think they'll be terribly successful. Ask the virgin computer user about computers, and IBM usually crops up somewhere. Then they see the neato Windows demo in the store and are told "you can run this on this box for under $1K!" Sure, it's misleading because the demo is probably a spiffy 386 with VGA, etc., but to that person, a computer is a computer, right? And here's Apple's offering for $2K... Back to _my_ focus and what prompted my original response: you said that, other than ego, Apple and NeXT were not competing. I'll agree so far as price. Apple loses by a long shot. As far as target users, I see them both shooting at the same place: the business environment. The Mac has always had to justify itself by being much better than DOS. For the most part, this is still true and will continue to be so unless Apple gets a lot bigger chunk of market at all levels. This is the same place NeXT is coming from. The question isn't "why get a NeXT instead of a Mac" but "why get a NeXT instead of a clone?" The Mac doesn't have nearly as tenacious grip as the PC so going with a NeXT is no less desireable in that light than going with a Mac. No compare price/performance and Apple looks like dirt. (And DOS/Windows/??? looks like what it is. :-) If Apple cares about its future, they'd better pay attention to the NeXT. If NeXT succeeds in gaining market share, it will very likely be at Apple's loss. Apple could certainly take a lesson in eating margins here. And for you, Norm, I can't help but ask: SAY you were about to buy a IIfx. SAY your setup would include a large monitor, 8MB RAM, some software, and ethernet. Would you be willing to learn how to care for a UNIX box if I gave you $5,000? For five grand, I'll do about anything. Price comparison... Apple Educational (off my price list): Mac IIfx 4/80 $6514 +4MB 400 (700 from Apple) Apple 2 page 1505 + disp card 630 (Apple 8*24) ether 300?(NuvoLink II) LaserWrtr IIntx 3149 Extended KB 160 ----- $12658 Bundled: HyperCard, TeachText (!) ====== NeXT Educational: NeXTstation $3500 ($4995 retail list; includes 68040, 8MB RAM, 105MB HD, 1120x832 92dpi 2bit greyscale, ethernet on the mother board, no slots, 2.8MB floppy, KB/Mouse) NeXT laser 1400 (400 dpi) ---- $4900 Bundled: WriteNow Improv (if you order before 1991) Mathematica (for educational purchases) Digital Webster NeXT Mail (and you are licensed to get these but you provide the disk space or pay materials cost for lots of floppies) Complete works of Shakespeare Oxford Dictionary of Quotations TEX Interface Builder Objective C/C++ compiler/debugger Online tech documentation and more development stuff... === And remember that you're saving around $8,000 so you can afford a big hard disk and heck, why not another NeXTstation why you're at it... Also, this machine runs at roughly 2-3 times the "speed" (no benchmark flames, please) of the IIfx. If you're so enclined, you could also setup accounts for others to login to your machine. (Dumb TTYs all the way to X Windows things. You can dialup you machine from wherever and check your mail...) Yes, kids, Apple can learn something here. -- |_ /| | Robert Minich | |\'o.O' | Oklahoma State University| A fanatic is one who sticks to |=(___)= | minich@d.cs.okstate.edu | his guns -- whether they are | U | - Ackphtth | loaded or not.