Path: utzoo!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!att!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: bralick@finglas.entmoot.cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: One of the best kept secrets in the Catholic Church Message-ID: Date: 18 Oct 90 06:57:48 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Self Similar Lines: 99 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article you write: ` ` I put forward the example of the Inquisition, which today, by most of ` us, is considered to have been an error. Persons who are not Roman Catholics will necessarily disagree with the following. Heck, some Roman Catholics may disagree. Just for the sake of argument, let us _momentarily_ grant that the Spanish Inquisition was the result of authentic Roman Catholic teaching. While I agree that most of us believe that the Spanish Inquisition was an error, as a Roman Catholic I must believe that the Roman Catholic Church, established by Jesus Christ, is author- itative. As such, it teaches with the authority granted it by Jesus Christ; so to argue that the Church was in error is to argue either that Christ established an institution which failed or that the Church taught just what it was supposed to do and that we disagree with what the Holy Ghost has led the Church to sanction. In the first case, one argues that the Roman Catholic Church is _not_ authoritative and that puts one squarely in the protestant camp. In the second case, one admits that the Roman Catholic Church is authoritative, but that one elevates one's own judgement over that of God (embodied in Church doctrine) hence reiterate the fall of man which was the result of just such arrogance. ` involved were 1) following the dictates of the church, I revoke my earlier supposition that such was the case, because I don't think that this is clear. I am no historian, but I thought that the abuses of the Spanish Inquisition resulted from the abuse of the Inquisition by the Spanish court. Thus I don't think that either the Inquisitors or the Spanish court had properly formed their consciences on this issue. It seems to me that the Spanish Inquisition was primarily serving the interests of the Spanish state, not the Church. It is imporant to not confuse the excesses and abuses of individual members of the Church with the authentic teaching of the Church. ` 2) following ` their consciences. I would argue (against Mr. Bralick) that the church ` was in error and that we should be aware that such error could occur ` again. Today we can read the Church's authoritative teachings for ourselves (those of us who can still read) and thus readily see when elements of the Church (clergy and/or lay) are twisting the teachings of the Church (e.g. Charles Curran). Hence my comments vis-a-vis the "escape clause" discussed in the original posting in this thread. ` I would argue (against Mr. Sandrock) that the people's ` consciences were in error - they were not properly formed. I think that we agree here, the Inquisitors and the politicians who used them followed their consciences contrary to Church teaching. I will need (the time to) research this more thoroughly, if we are going to discuss this issue at length. Perhaps the whole question (of Church authority and obedience) is too narrow for such a diverse group to be interested ... perhaps a Roman Catholic mailing list would be a useful tool for taking this sort of discussion offline. ` Nonetheless, God speaks to our hearts. After much effort ... ` we may find our consciences in conflict with the church. ` Then we must obey our conscience. When God calls, we MUST follow, ` though we leave mother and father, spouse and children, country ` and even church behind. I don't think that God will call you away from His own Church. This notion ought to set off sirens and flashing lights. For a Roman Catholic, the Roman Catholic chruch is Christ's own and He cannot be of two minds on a moral or doctrinal issue. For a Roman Catholic, the Church's authority is a sine qua non of Roman Catholicism. Best regards, -- Will \ Society cannot exist unless a controlling power bralick@cs.psu.edu \ upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, bralick@sol4.cs.psu.edu \ and the less of it there is within, the more with disclaimer; use disclaimer; \ there must be without. -- Edmund Burke [I think you're making things unnecessarily difficult for yourself. As far as I know, no Catholic doctrine claims that officials of the Roman Catholic Church make no errors. Quite the contrary. The claim is rather than the Church is able to make authoritative pronouncements on matters of faith and morals. It does this after careful consideration. The process looks a lot like one of "convergence". There are many issues on which the Church has not converged, and many cases where individuals or groups do not correctly apply doctrines on which there are authoritative views. Thus I see no problem even from a rather conservative Catholic point of view in saying that those members of the Church responsible for the Inquisition erred. I don't know enough about the history of the period to know exactly what the abuses were and what led to them. But what I know is consistent with simple abuse of power by those in authority, something which the Church does not claim immunity from. I don't see any need to claim that there were doctrinal errors involved. --clh]