Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!udel!mmdf From: S36666WB%ETSUACAD.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu (Brian Wright) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga Subject: Re: Comments about the Classic. Message-ID: <34356@nigel.ee.udel.edu> Date: 23 Oct 90 21:14:37 GMT Sender: mmdf@ee.udel.edu Lines: 183 On 23 Oct 90 01:12:39 GMT you said: > Here we go again. Let's see how many wrong things I can point out this time. > I would like to compare the recently-introduced MAC Classic to the >Amiga model that comes closest to matching it in price, the Amiga 500. > > As has been said before, the A500 blows the Classic away in terms >of color, multitasking, overall speed, and animation. > > However, the Classic blows the A500 away in overall useability >(the Classic has a hard drive, the A500 does not), ease-of-setup, >ease-of-use, quality of the display (the Classic has a high-quality >non-interlaced display, the A500 has a display that flickers >horribly), and quality of available software. Ok. There are two models of the Classic. One of them HAS the HD and one doesn't. I tend to believe that the $999 model doesn't. The one with the HD will be more costly. It will probably more close to the cost of an Amiga 500 with an HD. As far as the monitor is concerned, you can get the new denise and have a non-interlaced Amiga 500. You can then CHOOSE the multisync that suits you rather than having to be stuck with little B/W display offered by the Classic. > Given the above facts, I have to ask: which features are more >important to a consumer: a fast computer, or a more friendly and >useable computer? Obviously, for the average person that the >A500 and Classic are both tergeted at, the Classic is by far the >more appealing, because it is so much easier to setup and use for >anything other than games. I disagree. I got my 500 up and running in 20-30 minutes when I bought my 500 in '88. Yes, I had to learn CLI, but the 1.2 GUI handled me until then. With 2.0 CLI (or Shell as it's now called) isn't necessarily needed. > > Unfortunately, unless Commodore starts making plans to include >AmigaOS 2.0 will ALL Amigas, including the A500, the Classic will >I'gform its own niche right in the middle of Commodore's strongest >market, because the Classic is so much easier to setup and use, >and has a higher-quality display and a hard drive. They do plan on including it. On ALL Amigas. Yes, even the 512k machines. When it's available. The reason for the questionable date of 2.0 for the 500 comes from the fact that Commodore (and the dealers) just don't want to be SWAMPED with upgrades on the first day of release. That has to be at least part of the reason. Of course, this is speculative. One thing that ISN'T is that Commodore WILL support upgrades of 2.0 on ALL Amigas. Even the 1000s of you have enough memory (so I have heard about the 1000s). > Right now, by far the most damaging feature of the A500 is it's >*VERY* steep learning curve. In order to do anything at all with it, >you have to learn how to use the CLI. I know some people personally >who, in their first weeks with an Amiga, came very close to chucking >them out of the nearest window. With the Classic available, and the >reputation of the Amiga as a "game machine" or "toy", many people >probably will not buy an A500 in the first place. If the few that >do buy A500s end up selling them immediately, and buying a Classic, >then Commodore's reputation will be far worse than it is now. Yes, I agree that the learning curve of the Amiga is a bit more steep than the Mac. But for that matter then the IBM is quite a bit more than either the Amiga or the Mac. Yet more people keep buying IBMs than Amiga OR MAC. > The Classic also has advantages in that it is easier to setup and >use. This is important for the kind of people that both the Classic >and the A500 are aimed at. I went to a user's group meeting yesterday, >and at the end of the meeting, as some people were packing up their >systems to take them home, a couple of people mentioned how much of >a royal pain it is to unpack their Amiga systems and get them setup >again at home. With the Classic, you basically only have to plug >in the power cord, keyboard, and mouse, and you are done. If you want a pack-up computer, you buy a Laptop. > > Let's compare two equally useable Classic and A500 systems. The >Classic seems to come with just about everything you would need, >including a hard drive, 1M of RAM, and monitor. The price for this >system is $1000. You had better read your literature again. I don't think the $1000 gets you an HD. It may get you a SuperDrive and 1 meg, but I seriously doubt an HD. I have the literature for the Classic and it mentions two models. One with an HD and one without. Common sense dictates that the one without will be the less expensive. And the $999 price tag is their lowest priced Mac. So it must be devoid of an HD. > Now let's put together a similar A500 system. We can use the A500P >system as a base. This system includes the A500, 1M of RAM, and a >monitor, for $1189. You still need a hard drive, so add $629 for the >A590. The resulting system costs $1818 -- almost twice as much as the >Classic -- and you still do not get a system with a GUI that is nearly >as easy-to-use or as powerful, and the display quality, well, sucks >compared to the display of the Classic. Sure, the A500 system is VERY >good for games, but what else is it good for? In order for the A500 >is effectively compete against the Classic in anything but games, it >needs a hard drive and AmigaOS2.0. Since the HD issue is no longer an issue the $1189 price tag is all that matters. So it's $189 (by your costs which I question) more than a Classic. What do you get for that? An Amiga with 1 meg of memory, Floppy drive, and color monitor. Also they are shipping AmigaVision with CPUs now (for some undetermined amount of time). What else can you do with an Amiga 500 beside games? Ok... How about Ray-tracing (yes on 1 meg), word processing, painting, titling, genlocking, DCTV, Ham-e, music (internal or external), and the list goes on.... > The only reason that Commodore is not planning to include AmigaOS2.0 >with any of the A500 systems is that they want to keep the A500 >compatible with games. GAMES!!! By not planning to include AmigaOS2.0 >with any of the A500s, Commodore is proving to the entire world that >their Amiga 500s are game systems!! Sorry, here you are completely wrong. 2.0 will be available for ALL Amigas. Once 2.0 has shipped as an upgrade then Commodore should include it on all successive machines. 1.3 should then be a thing of the past. > Due to the inherant advantages of the Classic, if Commodore does >not do anything about it, Apple will be able to form a nice, big >market niche right in the middle of what was Commodore's strongest >market. What can Commodore do about it? They can do the following: > > (1) Discontinue all Amigas without hard drives, and start including >hard drives with all Amigas, including those A500s sold through the >mass-merchants. For the A500, remove the internal floppy drive and >put a 20M hard drive in its place. This isn't necessary. Remember the Classic comes in 2 models. > (2) Discontinue all Amigas with less than 1M of RAM, and start >including 1M with all Amigas, including those aimed at the mass- >merchants. To satisfy the dealers, give them an A500 with 40M hard >drive, 880K floppy drive, AmigaOS2.0, AmigaVision, 1M of RAM, >and a detachable keyboard. I agree that 1 meg should be the minimum memory configuration. The Fatter agnus should facilitate this. As I have said, Commodore will provide 2.0 for ALL Amigas as Commodore has already state this. > (3) Include AmigaOS2.0 with ALL Amigas, including the A500s sold >through the mass-merchants. For these A500s, strip AmigaOS2.0 down a >little, to remove those memory-cosuming features that most A500 >buyers won't use anyway. Such features that can be removed (and >offered as an inexpensive upgrade option) include ARexx and >AmigaVision. The only thing that consumes ram on 2.0 is the ROM. Everything else is user defineable. Meaning that you can take up as much or as little ram as possible with your system configuration and the programs you run. One other thing that I have noticed. An Amiga with 1 meg of RAM goes MUCH MUCH further than a Mac with 1 meg. > (4) To compete directly with the Classic, offer an A500 bundle >that consists of an A500 with 1M of RAM, 20M hard drive, AmigaOS2.0, >external floppy drive, and a monochrome multisync monitor. One thing I do agree with is an inexpensive 40 meg HD upgrade for the 500. That product is necessary. The A590 with it's 20 meg is just too small. Why not drop that 20 meg out of there and replace it with a 40 meg. If Commodore could produce a machine with an 20 (or 40 meg) HD, 1 meg, 880k floppy and monitor for $1000-$1200 then that would blow the Classic away. Otherwise, I'd say the Amiga 500 still holds enough over the Classic to make the keep it's lead. > > -MB- As usual MB didn't read all of his literature and jumps to conclusions. There are going to be 2 Classic models. One with an HD and one without. It is only obvious that the one without will be the least costly (i.e. $999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ======================================================================= ||NeXT- (nekst) N. The only PC to have sold less than 10,000 units and || || not be considered a flop. || ||------------------------------------------/ /------------------------|| ||---Brian Wright | / / || ||---s36666wb@etsuacad.etsu.edu | \ \/ / Only Amiga || ||---Commercial Artist and Amigaphile| \/\/ Makes It Possible!! || =======================================================================