Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!van-bc!tfic.bc.ca!clh From: clh@tfic.bc.ca (Chris Hermansen) Newsgroups: comp.windows.x Subject: Re: (Yet another) OpenLook vs. Motif Article by (yet) an(other) Expert Message-ID: <1990Oct19.211209.23384@tfic.bc.ca> Date: 19 Oct 90 21:12:09 GMT References: <9010162329.AA12330@statsci.com> Reply-To: clh@tacitus.UUCP (Chris Hermansen) Organization: Timberline Forest Inventory Consultants Lines: 109 In article <9010162329.AA12330@statsci.com> vonn@statsci.UUCP (Vonn Marsch) writes: [ stuff deleted ] >I personally have more of an interest in a single standard than most X >programmers because I have to write all of my X code twice, once for Motif >and once for OpenLook. This situation has made me bitter. > >Most of my bitterness is directed at two organizations: UNIX International and >The Open Software Foundation. Do not be fooled: regardless of what they say, >neither of these organizations wants a "standard"; what they want is a >"monopoly". This is, as I see it, part of a growing trend of MicroSoftization >in the UNIX industry. IMHO, it's relatively easy to decide the UI vs OSF question by answering the following: whose camp do you want to be in? the one that brought you OS/VS, MVS, XA, VM, SAA, CICS; and RT11, VMS, Dibol; and RTE; and AOS/VS; who are now preaching the open systems line? or the one that brought you UNIX, and NFS? It's probably healthy for the industry that there are some different UNIX-like systems around (assuming competition does improve the breed). It may even improve things for the user. I think few people would argue that System V is better without vi and more, so presumably BSD has been good for us all. >In my opinion, and I'm sure many of you will agree, the right way, what ought >to be the "UNIX way", to establish a standard is the way X became a standard. >One reason X is a standard is because the source code is free. Now, I don't >believe all software should be free (I'm not a FSF-style Software Socialist -- >I make my living from commercial software), but I do feel that standard >software for interoperability ought to be free; mostly because it benefits >everyone in this industry (and the consumer). (An analogy for this viewpoint >would be believing in the idea of private property while at the same time >supporting free access to roads and telephone lines.) Well, how did X become a standard? Seems to me that a group of very competent people without windowing systems and with kilometers of Ethernet cable got together and said "this is how a window system should work". Then a bunch of other people, also without windowing systems, got together and started using the results. This appears to be the same way that OSF and UI have done their thing; the only (possibly) unfortunate part is that there are two of them (instead of one Project Athena). I guess we're just lucky there isn't a Y-windows out there :-) >The remainder of my bitterness is directed at myself and others like me >(meaning "the X community") for not holding out to for a real standard and >instead being cowed by UI and OSF into choosing (or, in my case, hedging) >between OpenLook and Motif. At least you don't have to worry too much about DECWindows and Sunview anymore :-) >My grim prediction is that we won't have a standard unless UI and OSF >agree to negotiate a comprimise. I know that many of us hope that market >pressures, i.e. consumer demand, will drive Motif or OpenLook out; but this >is almost too much to hope for. But, for a moment, let's assume that market >pressure could drive one of them out. Which would it be? [ argument in favour of OpenLook instead of Motif deleted ] Again, IMHO, Motif may have been conceived as a marketing tool to keep Sun workstations out of IBM and DEC shops. Think of it this way; an IBM/DEC sales type can go into an IBM/DEC shop and say "why would you buy a workstation from Sun when you can get one from us, and it's from the vendor you know, and you can cover your butt on the workstation standards issue now because we adhere to the Motif standards, as do [list of vendors deleted]...". On the other hand, suppose IBM/DEC has a change of heart, and adopts OpenLook. Then the Sun sales person can say "why would you buy one of their workstations and get their [obviously flawed] implementations of OpenLook, and NFS, and..., when you can get one from the people who invented OpenLook, and NFS, and..." >And, although it is pure fantasy to think that this could in any way influence >the GUI market, I think that OpenLook is better than Motif, if marginally so. >This is from the an aesthetic standpoint (it plain looks and feels better) >and from my experience programming with Motif's tooklit (albeit version 1.0) >and the OpenLook Intrinsics Toolkit (OLIT is better organized and documented). > >To summerize: We blew it by accepting OpenLook and Motif to the extent we have. >Don't expect either of them to disappear anytime soon. Don't expect OpenLook >to ever disappear without Sun Microsystem's consent (or over its corporate dead >body). Well, I'm not sure we blew it. Sometimes one's code benefits from porting, ya know. Also, if there's something really cool in Motif, the idea will eventually make its way to OpenLook, and vice-versa. >We are the only ones who can fight for a true standard, but time's a wastin'. Are we sure X is what we want to fight for ? :-) :-) Disclaimer: Written at a SS1 recently upgraded to 12Mb so that it could run OpenWindows without paging itself to death! Oh yes, I'm sure that MVS, XA, VM, SAA, CICS are trademarks of IBM Corp.; RT11, VMS, Dibol, and DECWindows are trademarks of Digital Equipment Corp.; RTE is a trademark of Hewlett-Packard; AOS/VS is a trademark of Data General Corp.; UNIX is a trademark of AT&T; NFS and Sunview are trademarks of Sun Microsystems; and BSD is a trademark of the Regents of the University of California at Berkeley. I imagine that OpenLook and Motif are also trademarks, but I'm not sure who owns them. My humble apologies if I've made any errors in the above. Chris Hermansen Timberline Forest Inventory Consultants Voice: 1 604 733 0731 302 - 958 West 8th Avenue FAX: 1 604 733 0634 Vancouver B.C. CANADA clh@tfic.bc.ca V5Z 1E5 C'est ma facon de parler.