Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!aero!truebalt.cco.caltech.edu
From: morphy@truebalt.cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Women and Religion
Message-ID: <1990Oct17.010243.22997@nntp-server.caltech.edu>
Date: 17 Oct 90 01:02:43 GMT
References: <4836@sarah> <1990Oct12.214229.23575@nntp-server.caltech.edu> <1990Oct15.211035.8072@ora.com>
Sender: nadel@aerospace.aero.org
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 69
Approved: nadel@aerospace.aero.org
Status: R


[Consider following up to talk.religion.misc if you want to debate the
theological questions.                                    - MHN]


jan@orc.olivetti.com writes:

>In _The_ _Gnostic_ _Gospels_, by Elaine Pagels, she points out that
>some early Christian groups looked at the fact that the Hebrew word
>for "Holy Spirit" (breath) was feminine in the Old Testament, and
>neuter in Greek, and concluded that Joseph and Mary were His earthly
>parents, and the Father and the Holy Spirit were Jesus's heavenly
>parents.

That contradicts the repeated assertion in the Gospels that Mary was pregnant
before she "knew a man". Besides, as a Catholic, I was taught that Mary remained
a virgin all her life, although I haven't seen evidence of this in the Gospels.
I remember asking the monk who was teaching us how Mary could preserve her hymen
through labour(I was as Nasty as I Wanted to Be) and I got sent to the 
principal's office.
Anyway, like many theological arguments, this is quite a stretch. I think the 
Reds should have a theologian as first base. They're gonna need divine
intervention, anyway. What the heck.(Oops, the h-word)
That reminds me. Satan's male, too, as are all the angels referred to by name.

>These groups passed the duties of celebrant among their congregants,
>including women.  She asserts that the line '[the holy spirit]
>proceeds from the Father and the Son' in the Nicene creed, which split
>the Orthodox Churches from the Roman, was put in to put an end to this
>practice and those beliefs.  I read a couple of years ago that the
>Episcopal Church now officially no longer supports that line of the
>creed, but unfortunately the prayer book was only a few years old when
>the decision was made (they come out only about every 40 years due to
>the expense of replacing them), so it'll be awhile before we see this
>change.

I know many Orthodox people(Greek, Russian and Ethiopian) and none of them has
heard of a female holy spirit. Maybe it got drowned out in androcentrism over
the millenia, but I doubt it.

>Also, some feminist theologians point out that Jesus told several
>pairs of parables, where one each of the pair portrayed God as "like "
>a woman, and the other as like a man.  One theologian points out it is
>the Church's fault, not the Bible's, that preachers tend to say "God
>IS the good shepherd," but "God is LIKE the householder," when the
>originals are parallel.

That's neat, but Jesus and God are both males.

>If the church is willing to admit that this is partly caused by
>editing, (ex: Miriam and Mary got left in), there might be hope.

Hope for what? What exactly is it that we're getting for all these contortions?

>When I told my priest I wanted to be a priest, he said "You realize,
>don't you, that that raises the question of the gender of God."  I got
>mad and said if women could carry boy babies, we could carry a male
>God-presence.

This is sad. Please set your ambitions a little higher.

>Also BTW, after looking at our priest's pay in the Parish budget, I
>decided to stay in Engineering until my kids are through college, at
>least :-`

Good choice, but methinks wrong reasons.
Nuff said.

The Little Church Lady in Pasadena