Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!aero!cs.duke.edu From: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit) Newsgroups: soc.feminism Subject: Re: Who's Exploiting Who? Message-ID: <656288051@lear.cs.duke.edu> Date: 18 Oct 90 22:14:12 GMT References: <65210@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> Sender: nadel@aerospace.aero.org Organization: The Piranha Club Lines: 45 Approved: nadel@aerospace.aero.org Status: R In article (Kaveh Baharestan) writes: >Men, generally are not degraded. They do not beg, usually. And they >are almost always in control of any situation. Still the anti-porno laws that were written by Catherine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin outlawed porno where men are not in control as well; S&M with female dominant / male submissive and all-men gay porno were outlawed because it is supposed to be "a form of discrimination against women" (it was written in the *law* so stop laughing). I think that these women just did not like *all* form of porno and they think that they have the right to outlaw any material that they don't like, and shout "it degrades women" just because they feel so. >Point being, do you know anyone who would be excited (sexually) by a >burgler, a guy in an alley....? No, but I know people who are excited by *playing* a game like this. The porno you described is a *play* between adults and not a real rape. I hope that you can see the difference. >Porn promotes rape. Your arguments why it is so are flawed, and the statistics don't prove your point either. Is there any fact that can change your opinion that "porno promotes rape", or do you believe in it regardless of all facts? >8-O i feel so exploited when I watch M. Chambers!!!! Give me a break! And I feel degraded when I read Brownmiller and Dworkin, but I will *never* try to use any law to shut them up. >Lady Chatterley's Lover (THE BOOK! ;-)) then you are not referring to >pornograph, but of a work that has sexually explict scenes that are >within the context of the plot and not sex for the sake of sex. Would you mind to tell us what is so bad about "sex for the sake of sex"? [Also, how do you draw the line? This is the big issue that was responsible for the change in the movie ratings system, for example. - MHN] Hillel gazit@cs.duke.edu "Only if one thinks of sex itself as a degrading act can one believe that all pornography degrades or harm women." -- ("AMONG US, AGAINST US the new puritans", Pat Califia)