Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!know!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!aero!ms.uky.edu From: kaveh@ms.uky.edu (Kaveh Baharestan) Newsgroups: soc.feminism Subject: Re: Who's Exploiting Who? Message-ID: Date: 20 Oct 90 14:24:21 GMT References: <65210@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> <656288051@lear.cs.duke.edu> Sender: nadel@aerospace.aero.org Organization: U of Ky, Math. Sciences, Lexington KY Lines: 79 Approved: nadel@aerospace.aero.org Status: R gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit) writes: >In article (Kaveh Baharestan) writes: >>Men, generally are not degraded. They do not beg, usually. And they >>are almost always in control of any situation. >Still the anti-porno laws that were written by Catherine MacKinnon and >Andrea Dworkin outlawed porno where men are not in control as well; >S&M with female dominant / male submissive and all-men gay porno were >outlawed because it is supposed to be "a form of discrimination >against women" (it was written in the *law* so stop laughing). >I think that these women just did not like *all* form of porno and >they think that they have the right to outlaw any material that they >don't like, and shout "it degrades women" just because they feel so. I don't know which laws you are talking about. Could you please clearify or tell me where to find the written laws? -thanks. >No, but I know people who are excited by *playing* a game like this. >The porno you described is a *play* between adults and not a real >rape. I hope that you can see the difference. Most people don't. Thats my point. Last night i heard a friend say about a woman walking dowwn the street, "I'd really like to fuck her.." He did not know this woman , did not care to know this woman in any but a carnal manner. My point is that he objectified her to something he wanted to fuck. This same objectification is done with porn, and THAT and the *playing* leads to rape. If you doubt me, then think of it as war. If i am a general and i want to win a war i do not tell me soldiers that they are killing people just like their mothers, fathers, siblings, friends, selves.. I tell them that they are fighting an EVIL EMPIRE, blood-thearsty(sp?) fanatic-arab-infidels, anyTHING but humans! >>Porn promotes rape. >Your arguments why it is so are flawed, and the >statistics don't prove your point either. what statistics? >Is there any fact that can change your opinion that "porno promotes rape", >or do you believe in it regardless of all facts? show me the facts. >And I feel degraded when I read Brownmiller and Dworkin, but I will >*never* try to use any law to shut them up. You and I and everybodyelse have the right to argue and discuss anything. what i am doing here is revealing my thoughs to others. I am not forcing anybody to do or think anything! My statement that *I* am against pornagraphy goes no further than that, than myself. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO ASSUME THAT I AM PRO-CENSORSHIP because of this. People have the right to be exposed to what they want to be eposed to. >Would you mind to tell us what is so bad about "sex for the sake of sex"? isn't it obvious? >[Also, how do you draw the line? This is the big issue that was responsible >for the change in the movie ratings system, for example. - MHN] where i draw the line is my business, where you draw it is yours. I disagree with the movie ratings period. They treat sex as a crime and violence as "grown-up". >"Only if one thinks of sex itself as a degrading act can one >believe that all pornography degrades or harm women." this person is bunching sex into one catagory. There are different kinds of sex and not all are degading. PS - i never said that sex was degrading. Kaveh. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "Men are like lizards that bask in the sun, and say "what a nice place | | someone has built for me!"" -The Stone Of Farwell | | Tad Williams | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+