Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!samsung!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!aero!alexandre-dumas.ICS.UCI.EDU From: tittle@alexandre-dumas.ICS.UCI.EDU (Cindy Tittle) Newsgroups: soc.feminism Subject: Re: Who's Exploiting Who? Message-ID: <9010241437.aa17726@ICS.UCI.EDU> Date: 24 Oct 90 21:37:00 GMT Sender: nadel@aerospace.aero.org Lines: 84 Approved: nadel@aerospace.aero.org Status: R In <67205@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> csluder@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (KirK) writes: >Isn't degrading a relative statement? So long as both parties >honestly consent, how can sex, in any form, be degrading? While you >might see the role of the slave in a sadomasochist relationship >degrading I sincerely doubt that the slave sees it that way. Hm. In my view, consensual sex is not degrading. Non-consensual sex is degrading. In fact, I then refuse to call it sex (so in a roundabout way, for me sex is not degrading because when it is, I don't view it as sex 8-) and then I call it other things like rape. But here is the problem: when non-consensual sex is viewed as "alright", then many of us, particularly women get degraded by those attitudes. Date rape is one consequence. There is a tangled relationship by all this: I am not degraded by the actual activity of an S&M couple, because they understand what consensuality and trust is; I *am* degraded by the fellow who thinks "no means yes" and "when they're forced, they *really* like it" and proceeds to force me despite my actions, perhaps even thinking he's put in an enjoyable filip of S&M. The question is where this fellow gets his ideas from; from an imperfect understanding of S&M?, from pornography?, from societal attitudes? The question of when sex is PERCEIVED as consensual or non consensual are very difficult to answer. Now, for me the kicker is that I view a lot of pornography as depicting non-consensual sex, or implying that many people WANT non-consensual sex. I don't see that there is any real way to tell what a POSED picture of a sex-scene is actually conveying (since there is no event, you cannot point to the picture and say "they were consenting!" -- all they are consenting to is to pose for the picture & get paid). Therefore, most interpretations of what a pornographic picture depicts are due to the society we are in and as such pornography and especially its interpretations point up SYMPTOMS in this society that make it very easy to objectify and degrade people in a sexual context. Banning pornography will mask the symptoms (sort of) but certainly not address the root causes. (Note that I myself am displaying some of these societal symptoms by viewing most porn as depicting non-consensual sex.) On a related note, one of the biggest problems that S&M has is that many people view it as examples of people enjoying non-consensual sex. The perception of S&M and the posed pictures of it promote this view. The grand irony, of course, is that actual participation in S&M is highly consensual. If I know of people that participate in S&M, I know that they precisely understand the notion of consensual sex. If I know of a person who fantasizes about S&M, then I need to consider whether s/he understands consensuality or not (i.e., whether or not that person really understands what S&M involves) and I may need to consider if that person presents a danger to me or not. >Just certain kinds of sex. Who are you to make distinctions? This is precisely why I won't try to censor pornography, although I'm strongly anti-porn (I do think it is reasonable to insist that pornography be sold only to those above 18, though). I will, however, be happy to expound my views to anyone who wants to listen, and teach them to my children. The phrasing has been sloppy here, though. DEPICTIONS of sex in porn is what I believe is being discussed. To bring this topic back to feminism, I think that the questioning of pornography by feminists has proved to be a good thing, particularly in the development of various thoughts as to the whys and wherefores of pornography. Feminist analysis of pornography provide another viewpoint from which to consider the implications of porn other than from, say religious or androcentric. (Of course, the new viewpoint doesn't necessarily imply that the correct "solution" will be found.) --Cindy -- Anyone's death diminishes me, \ | ARPA: tittle@ics.uci.edu Because I am involved in Humanity, /\ | BITNET: tittle@uci.bitnet And therefore never send to know | UUCP: ...!ucbvax!ucivax!tittle For whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee | USNAIL: POB 4188 Irvine CA 92716