Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!julius.cs.uiuc.edu!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!ox.com!yale!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews From: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Andrews) Newsgroups: misc.handicap Subject: Re: CANES VERSUS DOGS Message-ID: <15387@bunker.UUCP> Date: 2 Nov 90 04:57:27 GMT Sender: news@bunker.UUCP Reply-To: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org Distribution: misc Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA Lines: 162 Approved: wtm@bunker.UUCP Index Number: 11486 [This is from the Blink Talk Conference] DAVID ANDREWS> However, this echo seems to have a large number V> of dog users DAVID ANDREWS> and I would like to say a couple of V> things about the cane, DAVID ANDREWS> which have occurred to me. V> Yes and the tone of your message has a slightly defensive V> taint, which might make some think you have some personal V> resentment towards dog users. You are probably right that my message is a little defensive. This is an emotional issue as it becomes a part of who we are and how we see ourselves. I, and others, are probably guilty of thinking that our method is the best and only, and trying to convince everyone else. We then take a right or wrong, win or loose position, one that no one can win. Sorry! DAVID ANDREWS> First, I have known some dog users, who went to V> a dog because DAVID ANDREWS> they weren't comfortable using a V> cane. In general, this is DAVID ANDREWS> because they did not V> have good training. V> Well, my friend, I do not find this a very plausiable or likely V> explanation of why very many people become dog users and it V> doesn't ring true. If you know anything about using a Guide Dog V> or Guide Dog schools, you should well know that a person who is V> a poor cane traveler and does not have good mobility is not V> going to be a good dog user and in most cases, will not even V> get into a dog school unless he or she has some kind of special V> clout. Your implication that a poor cane traveler can find V> easier going by becoming a dog user is just plain false. V> Remember David, the dogs do not take us traveling at their V> whim, we must make the dogs take us where we want to go, just V> as you must point your long cane in the directions you wish to V> travel. The fact of the matter is, that one had better already V> have good mobility skills if they wish to use a guide dog. The V> Guide Dog is not mean't for the person with lesser mobility as V> your tone implies, it is for the person that wishes greater and V> faster mobility. You say that the dog is ment for someone who wants faster and greater mobility. That implies that you think the dog is better, which is an individual matter. I agree that a person should be a "good" cane user to use a dog. However "good" is a relative term. Most people start with a cane. While there will be exceptions, if most people were happy with aond comfortable with their cane skills they probably wouldn't get a dog. While there are benefits, speed for some, companionship, ice breaker etc., there are also disadvantages, cost, time away from home or job, feeding, bathroom problems, hair etc., so you have to want a dog and/or be unhappy with your cane skills. A dog user does need to know where she/he is going, make those decisions etc., but does not have to concern her/him self with details that a cane user needs. I was not trying to deminish dog using skills, they are different. DAVID ANDREWS> They then go to a dog school V> and receive 4 to 8 weeks of DAVID ANDREWS> intensive training V> and can use it okay. They then think the DAVID ANDREWS> the dog V> is better. V> I think my friend,that you have got that a bit backwards as V> well. I would venture to tell you that dog users make a V> decision that a dog may be better suited to their lifestyles V> before they go to dog school, not when they get there. It is V> why we go in the first place. V> One must develope more of a sense of traveling responsibility V> than ever, not less! One must learn a whole new "Traveling V> language" and how to use their feet in the proper position, how V> to be aware when the guide dog begins to behave in certain V> manners, how to know when the dog is wrong from when the dog V> user is wrong, to be aware that a dangerous or fatal traveling V> mistake can cost both the person and the dog. It also requires V> that the dog user know that the Guide Dog relies just as much V> on the person as the person does on the dog. Using a Guide Dog V> requires the mobility skills needed to use a cane, plus more. V> So, the concept that going to a Guide Dog is what to do to find V> a more comfortable or easier way to travel for those with V> inadequate cane skill, is ludicrous. I am sorry, but you are V> just plain wrong. DAVID ANDREWS> I think that using a cane V> involves having confidence in DAVID ANDREWS> yourself and when V> using a dog, you put your confidence and DAVID ANDREWS> trust V> in the dog. David, I would refer you back to my above V> paragraph. This comment tells me that you really have very V> little understanding of what using a Guide Dog is all about and V> the reality of what using a Guide Dog requires. If you don't V> think using a Guide Dog requires self confidence in your own V> personal ability then you had better think again. You learn to V> trust your dog because you have confidence that you can make V> your dog take you where you need to go safely! The dog doesn't V> just do all the work for the blind person. Using a dog requires V> a constant partnership and the proper commands from the person V> as to which direction to go, when to go, and so much more. It V> is work, you don't just grab onto the harness and the dog does V> all the work! A person not confident in using a cane is not V> going to be any more confident with a dog and probably will not V> even make it through the school training. So, I am sorry, but V> your suggestion that the dog user puts all of her trust and V> confidence in the dog while the cane user puts it into him or V> herself, just doesn't wash either. It takes a considerable V> amount of self confidence to use a dog. I really think you need V> to become better informed about Guide Dog use and training V> because a lot of what you say and imply just is not true. I must admit that I probably simplified things a bit, however, you say that dog users must have the skills that cane users have plus more. We both must have the same basic orientation skills, deciding whether to turn right or left at the cornier, when it is safe to cross etc. Cane users must keep track of landmarks, make decisions about some obstacles etc., while dog users must work with the dog and do the things you point out. So, one is not more skilled then the other, just different. DAVID V> ANDREWS> Using a cane is 90 percent confidence and ten percent V> DAVID ANDREWS> technigue in my opinion. With better training, V> many more DAVID ANDREWS> people could use a cane successfully. V> And with this comment, you again imply that Guide Dogs are for V> those persons who cannot use a long cane successfully or V> comfortably and this totally goes against the grain of the V> reality, for all of the reasons I have stated above. V> As for me, before I got my dog, as I believe you already know V> and so do others here, I was a cane traveler myself. In fact, I V> was not only a good cane traveler, in the past year, before V> switching to a dog, I became nothing short of an excellent cane V> traveler. I am still able to go anywhere I wish to go using a V> long cane and do use it still, when going to places I will not V> bring my dog, such as loud rock concerts. I will bet I use a V> long cane as well as you or anyone on this echo. So, this idea V> that we go to dogs because they are easier to use than long V> canes or because we are not good cane users is baloney. In V> fact, I would go out on a limb and say that it is probable that V> every dog user in this echo was probably quite a very good cane V> traveler before they became dog users. I think that you were being a little defensive in the last paragraph. I was just talking about the confidence needed to use a cane, not putting down dogs in any way. I must go back to my fundamental premice, which is that most people in this country have not had very good travel training with a cane, so that they don't develop the confidence and skills that they could with good training. As an example, most people are given canes that are two short. My cane comes to my nose. Anything shorter then my chin or neck does not give me enough warning of obstacles. Most, if not all of the dog schools, seem to do a pretty good job, and most of their graduates become fine travelers, probably better travelers then they were with a cane, due to the level of training most people get with each. I have had a number of people tell me that they got a dog because they were not comfortable with their cane skills. Some of them were from New Jersey, where I got my travel training, which was terrible. I have learned and taught mys3elf good skills since then. You made a conscious decision to get a dog, fought for it and accomplished it. You should be prould of yourself and what you did. Many of my observations have more to do with the deplorable level of travel training, as I see it, in this country. David Andrews ... Your Sound Alternative -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!David.Andrews Internet: David.Andrews@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org