Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!uunet!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: The Uneducated Need Not Apply Message-ID: Date: 30 Oct 90 05:28:26 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston -- Department of Mathematics Lines: 92 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Darren F Provine) writes: >Throckmorton, then: > a) has studied the issue in some depth, > b) prayerfully and honestly seeks to know God's will, > c) does not have an `unrepentant heart', > d) recognises Jesus Christ as Lord, > e) lives his life as he believes God would have him do, >and f) puts his trust for salvation only in Christ's sacrifice. > >But none of this will help him, and he will be barred from Heaven _only_ >because he is not intellectually capable of seeing the strengths and >weaknesses in a philosophical argument. and > Suppose you are right, and is wrong; if a > person who disagrees does so because she fails to see the superiority > of your arguments, do you believe that intellectual capabilities are a > determining factor of salvation? If not, why is a person who does > not agree with you about a non-Christian (and, > therefore, unsaved)? Darren Provine poses an interesting question. My reply is, first of all, that salvation is a matter of faith, and not reason. Anybody can be saved regardless of their ability to reason. It is not necessary to understand all of the doctrines of the Bible to be saved. That would be a form of works righteousness. At the same time, I cannot hold much hope for someone who teaches false doctrine. Teachers in the church are held, I believe, to a higher degree of responsibility than those who merely follow. As Paul writes, and repeats, in Galatians 1:8, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (anathema) I believe that the only criterion for salvation is that we trust only in Christ's death and resurrection for our salvation, and do not rely in any way on our works as contributing to that salvation. Jehovah's Witnesses, as far as I can tell, do not do this. I have asked several JW's who have come to my door, 'How is a man saved?' and the answer I have gotten is either 'by living a christian life' or 'by following Christ's example'. When I point out Ephesians 2:8-9, they generally say 'Oh, yes, we believe that' but I believe their first response is the most accurate. After all, these are people coming to my door and claiming to know Scripture cover to cover. If they are really doing christian evangelism, then there is no way that they should be able to point out every verse in the Bible that seems to deny Christ's divinity or the eternal punishment of the unbeliever, but get the most important doctrine of the Bible wrong, that is, if they really believe that 'it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast.' I might add that I do not believe the Jehovah's Witnesses truly confess that Jesus Christ is their Lord. Their Lord is Jehovah, and they do not believe that Jehovah is the same as Jesus. (See Romans 9:13 and compare Joel 2:32). I do not believe that everyone who belongs to a church that teaches false doctrine is damned. That would be contrary to the Lutheran doctrine concerning the church. The church is the body of believers, whom the Spirit has called to faith through the means of grace, that is, the Word of God and the Sacraments. Where these are used in accordance with Christ's command there the Spirit is working faith. However it must be noted that false doctrine is dangerous; it is harmful to our faith and a threat to our salvation. 'A liitle yeast works its way through the whole batch of dough'. For this reason, Scripture enjoins us to avoid those who teach false doctrine, as I have noted in my postings (see Romans 16:17-18), and may shortly explain in greater depth. So while someone may belong to a 'false' church and still be Christian, that does not mean that I should have fellowship with him - even though we are still part of the one Christian church. In summary, I believe that Darren's Throckmorton is saved - unless perhaps he is a teacher of false doctrine, who ought to know better. Nor do I think intellectual shortcomings are the reason for a person's holding to false doctrine. This is a spiritual matter that has to be spiritually discerned. Some of the world's brightest and best minds belong to unbelievers -- surely Darren will agree with this. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran "O little flock, fear not the Foe Who madly seeks you overthrow; Dread not his rage and pow'r. What tho' you courage sometimes faints, His seeming triumph o'er God's saints Lasts but a little hour." --a reformation hymn by Johann M. Altenburg, 1632. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.